Get your heat pump quick?

arty688

oh and with every new boiler install a detailed energy survey with grants and incentives to insulate.

Cardew

TELLIT01 said:

They were talking to a guy from Friends of the Earth on BBC this morning.  He's the only person I have ever heard claim that they are just as effective as gas boilers.  Every other report I've seen says they don't get water as hot.  He did concede that he isn't saving any money because, being electric powered, they are more expensive to run than a gas boiler.  On that basis there is a considerable additional cost with no saving over time to offset it.

Comparisons of running costs are dependant on the difference between gas and electricity prices. For quite a while electricity has been 5-6 times more expensive than gas. Even under the current price cap introduced on 01 Oct it is still in that region (e.g for OVO SVT in my region gas is 4.04p/kWh electricity is 20.59p/kWh.  As said in another thread this ratio could be skewed by market forces or government intervention.

As an annual system COP of 3.0(3kWh output for 1kWh input) is very acceptable for a retrofit heatpump, the ratio of gas/electricity prices will have to change considerably before a heat pump will be cheaper to run than Gas CH.

michaels

Cardew said:

TELLIT01 said:

They were talking to a guy from Friends of the Earth on BBC this morning.  He's the only person I have ever heard claim that they are just as effective as gas boilers.  Every other report I've seen says they don't get water as hot.  He did concede that he isn't saving any money because, being electric powered, they are more expensive to run than a gas boiler.  On that basis there is a considerable additional cost with no saving over time to offset it.

Comparisons of running costs are dependant on the difference between gas and electricity prices. For quite a while electricity has been 5-6 times more expensive than gas. Even under the current price cap introduced on 01 Oct it is still in that region (e.g for OVO SVT in my region gas is 4.04p/kWh electricity is 20.59p/kWh.  As said in another thread this ratio could be skewed by market forces or government intervention.

As an annual system COP of 3.0(3kWh output for 1kWh input) is very acceptable for a retrofit heatpump, the ratio of gas/electricity prices will have to change considerably before a heat pump will be cheaper to run than Gas CH.

Does anyone know how much of the 20p per kwh for electricity is from the green/fairness levies as we could then work out what impact transferring them to gas would have on the price ratio.

Edit:  I have found one source suggesting about 22% (although this was from when the fuel cost was much lower).  If we reduce electricity costs by this proportion and increase gas costs by the same then we do end up closer to the 3x ratio that makes heat pump economics work - especially if hot water and a portion of heating demand is done with lower rate night electricity.

Martyn1981

But then you'd have to take into account the FF percentage, say 40% for leccy, and ~100% for natgas, so gas price up 55%. Or do we have to consider is it energy out, or energy in, which might double the natgas part for leccy given the generation efficiencies, so 60% natgas (80/140), so 37% for gas? I've lost myself already.

I like arty688's suggestion and the golden rule one 'insulate, insulate, insulate'. After all, when it comes to energy consumption the best watts are negawatts.

gefnew

A bit of a long read but some info in it.
Electricity Generation Costs 2020 (publishing.service.gov.uk)

TELLIT01

I haven't seen anything about the need to replace all the radiators to suit the lower output of the new boilers.  That's just another large cost to add to something which is currently unaffordable to a large number of people.

michaels

Martyn1981 said:

But then you'd have to take into account the FF percentage, say 40% for leccy, and ~100% for natgas, so gas price up 55%. Or do we have to consider is it energy out, or energy in, which might double the natgas part for leccy given the generation efficiencies, so 60% natgas (80/140), so 37% for gas? I've lost myself already.

I like arty688's suggestion and the golden rule one 'insulate, insulate, insulate'. After all, when it comes to energy consumption the best watts are negawatts.

I think it is easier to think of it as a fixed ish bill that is currently spread over all electricity units but instead could be spread over all gas units as long as the revenue raised was the same.

Verdigris

TELLIT01 said:

I haven't seen anything about the need to replace all the radiators to suit the lower output of the new boilers.  That's just another large cost to add to something which is currently unaffordable to a large number of people.

Perhaps you need to do some reading on the subject. Heat Pumps for the Home, by John Cantor, is excellent.

If you lower the flow temperature in a given size radiator the output will fall accordingly. Most radiators are sized for the typical flow temperature, of a gas boiler, of around 70 degrees. To get an equal output you need larger radiators or, ideally, underfloor heating.

Meatballs

I think there's certainly a market inflation due to RHI, and it will still existing somewhat with the 5k grant.

5K could go a long way towards covering the costs of some smaller suitable homes which are fairly well insulated and have a heating system properly sized to run at condensing temperatures, but then these aren't really the homes we should be concerned about as they are lower CO2 emitters anyway. The 5K will be a nice plus for those stuck on oil and looking to change. It will struggle to make any impact on combi boiler households due to the additional cost of plumbing in a cylinder and the space issues required for these. 

I think we will see targeted and design SCoPs drop from 3.5s to < 3 as HPs are designed for higher flow temps, one size fits all installs, rather than do extensive retrofitting of radiators etc. The electricity prices for these will be eye watering in the short term until gas catches up, either through more cheap renewables, additional carbon taxes, modifications of the green/environmental taxes. The CO2 benefits may also be marginal in the short term compared to a high performing condensing boiler and well insulated property - at least until the grid becomes greener.

GSHP will drop in sales, now only being affordable by a small percent, even when they were already restricted to a small number with suitable land as the cost of boreholes was a bit eyewatering. 

The main issue with this announcement is that there has been nothing further about insulating properties which is the most cost effective way of reducing CO2 emissions. 

shinytop

TELLIT01 said:

I haven't seen anything about the need to replace all the radiators to suit the lower output of the new boilers.  That's just another large cost to add to something which is currently unaffordable to a large number of people.

A 600x1200 Type 22 double panel rad costs £67 inc vat from Screwfix, including all fixings and a TRV.  Most of mine are like this or smaller and work very well with my ASHP.  It could be an additional cost but maybe not as much as is being claimed. People talking about huge expensive radiators or the need to rip up floors and install underfloor heating are just scaremongering.  Having said that, if pipes need replacing that is more work.