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Executors stolen from estate?
pfono33333054
Posts: 6 Forumite
The reason that I’m writing is because I want to make sure that my grandmother’s estate was dealt with correctly. I feel it’s my duty to my grandmother and my late father and living mother.
My grandmother passed away a number of years ago. To my knowledge at the time she left a nominal sum to each grandchild. I received my sum. She had two children, my father who is deceased and my aunt
Upon visiting my aunt after many years I discovered that she now lives in my grandmother’s old house. She behaved suspiciously and I decided to do some digging.
I purchased the will and probate and the land registry document. Are there more documents that might give me a clue? My aunt and her husband are the executors. Three things stood out. Firstly, my mother (my grandmother’s daughter-in-law) is a residuary beneficiary to share the estate equally with my aunt. My mother was never informed of this although she was given a small sum (less than £4,000).
Secondly, according to the probate document, probate was agreed at a variable sum and my aunt bought the house for the lower amount. The amount declared at probate (net 140K - gross 325K) assumes that at the lower amount the only thing of value is the house and my grandmother had no pension, investments or savings of any kind. I find this odd. The land registry document is in her name. Can my aunt even purchase the house without my mother’s consent?.
Thirdly, The will reads that each grandchild should receive their nominal sum. Then as the next item in the list it says the estate is to be sold and divided up between my aunt and my mother. I read this as though my grandmother already had the money to give to her grandchildren. She used to give each grandchild a large sum every birthday and Christmas in her final years so it seems unlikely that she died with no financial means. Is there a correct way to interpret wills in this regard?
My aunt has clearly been motivated by her own interests. That may suggest foul play. We are unlikely to take her to court on a legal technicality but how can I find out if my aunt has stolen from the estate?
My grandmother passed away a number of years ago. To my knowledge at the time she left a nominal sum to each grandchild. I received my sum. She had two children, my father who is deceased and my aunt
Upon visiting my aunt after many years I discovered that she now lives in my grandmother’s old house. She behaved suspiciously and I decided to do some digging.
I purchased the will and probate and the land registry document. Are there more documents that might give me a clue? My aunt and her husband are the executors. Three things stood out. Firstly, my mother (my grandmother’s daughter-in-law) is a residuary beneficiary to share the estate equally with my aunt. My mother was never informed of this although she was given a small sum (less than £4,000).
Secondly, according to the probate document, probate was agreed at a variable sum and my aunt bought the house for the lower amount. The amount declared at probate (net 140K - gross 325K) assumes that at the lower amount the only thing of value is the house and my grandmother had no pension, investments or savings of any kind. I find this odd. The land registry document is in her name. Can my aunt even purchase the house without my mother’s consent?.
Thirdly, The will reads that each grandchild should receive their nominal sum. Then as the next item in the list it says the estate is to be sold and divided up between my aunt and my mother. I read this as though my grandmother already had the money to give to her grandchildren. She used to give each grandchild a large sum every birthday and Christmas in her final years so it seems unlikely that she died with no financial means. Is there a correct way to interpret wills in this regard?
My aunt has clearly been motivated by her own interests. That may suggest foul play. We are unlikely to take her to court on a legal technicality but how can I find out if my aunt has stolen from the estate?
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Comments
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No. It means that the nominal sum should be paid before the remained of the estate is distributed. It doesn't need to pre-exist in cash. If you distribute the entire state before the nominal sums, there are no nominal sums.Andy33333054 said:
Thirdly, The will reads that each grandchild should receive their nominal sum. Then as the next item in the list it says the estate is to be sold and divided up between my aunt and my mother. I read this as though my grandmother already had the money to give to her grandchildren.
If your aunt was the executor, she can sell the house - including to herself. Your mother wasn't required to deal with the sale of the property unless she was also an executor.
The only thing that seems odd is that your mother only received a small amount. However, if there were debts to be taken care of, then the residue shrinks.0 -
Did your aunt and uncle ever provide estate accounts - which should show what your grandmother owned at her death and how it was distributed according to her will - to your mother? AIUI all residuary beneficiaries of an estate are legally entitled to be given/ask for accounts so that they can see that the residuary estate has been correctly distributed as per the will.
Of course, depending upon how relations between your aunt and your mother stand, your mother may be reluctant to ask...
(Personally I see nothing wrong with a residuary beneficiary asking an executor for estate accounts. If I were an executor I would provide them as a matter of course, and if I hadn't provided them I wouldn't be offended if somebody who was entitled to them asked for them. If you aunt hasn't already provided accounts to your mother and won't do so when asked, you can draw your own conclusions - which may or may not be correct...
However, if accounts have already been provided and you are saying they are false, then you're basically starting down the route of saying your aunt (and/or her husband) have committed fraud. You or your mother might not want to go there... )0 -
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Estate accounts have not been provided. I realise that might be our next course of action. I understand that if my aunt refuses to supply them then we could apply for a court order, is that correct? Is there any time limit in which you can ask for the accounts? My mother only found out that she is a residuary beneficiary a couple of weeks a go but my grandmother passed away over 7 years ago.Manxman_in_exile said:Did your aunt and uncle ever provide estate accounts - which should show what your grandmother owned at her death and how it was distributed according to her will - to your mother? AIUI all residuary beneficiaries of an estate are legally entitled to be given/ask for accounts so that they can see that the residuary estate has been correctly distributed as per the will.
Of course, depending upon how relations between your aunt and your mother stand, your mother may be reluctant to ask...
(Personally I see nothing wrong with a residuary beneficiary asking an executor for estate accounts. If I were an executor I would provide them as a matter of course, and if I hadn't provided them I wouldn't be offended if somebody who was entitled to them asked for them. If you aunt hasn't already provided accounts to your mother and won't do so when asked, you can draw your own conclusions - which may or may not be correct...
However, if accounts have already been provided and you are saying they are false, then you're basically starting down the route of saying your aunt (and/or her husband) have committed fraud. You or your mother might not want to go there... )0 -
Thank you for responding. I understand there is something called the self-dealing rule. It imposes legal restrictions on trustees and executors preventing them from “dealing” with trust or estate property; and this includes them purchasing property from the trust or estate without informed consent from all beneficiaries?Deleted_User said:If your aunt was the executor, she can sell the house - including to herself. Your mother wasn't required to deal with the sale of the property unless she was also an executor.
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You can’t do much until you see the estate accounts.0
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pfono33333054 said:
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. Estate accounts have not been provided. I realise that might be our next course of action. I understand that if my aunt refuses to supply them then we could apply for a court order, is that correct? Is there any time limit in which you can ask for the accounts? My mother only found out that she is a residuary beneficiary a couple of weeks a go but my grandmother passed away over 7 years ago.Manxman_in_exile said:Did your aunt and uncle ever provide estate accounts - which should show what your grandmother owned at her death and how it was distributed according to her will - to your mother? AIUI all residuary beneficiaries of an estate are legally entitled to be given/ask for accounts so that they can see that the residuary estate has been correctly distributed as per the will.
Of course, depending upon how relations between your aunt and your mother stand, your mother may be reluctant to ask...
(Personally I see nothing wrong with a residuary beneficiary asking an executor for estate accounts. If I were an executor I would provide them as a matter of course, and if I hadn't provided them I wouldn't be offended if somebody who was entitled to them asked for them. If you aunt hasn't already provided accounts to your mother and won't do so when asked, you can draw your own conclusions - which may or may not be correct...
However, if accounts have already been provided and you are saying they are false, then you're basically starting down the route of saying your aunt (and/or her husband) have committed fraud. You or your mother might not want to go there... )
If your mother wants to see estate accounts then her first step - as a residuary beneficiary - should be tactfully to ask the executors for them, pointing out that she understands she is entitled to see such accounts as a residuary beneficiary of her mother's estate.
If they are not forthcoming then I presume (I do not know for certain) that you could apply for a court order, although I suspect that might become expensive. You could perhaps engage a solicitor to write a "legal" letter to them explaining the law and your mother's entitlement to accounts. That might work and be less expensive. Sort of depends how much money might be at stake under the will...
If they do provide accounts, are you or your mother in a position to say either "OK. That looks right" or "Hang on - that must be wrong!"?
I'm no expert and I'm not a lawyer - see what others advise.0 -
the gross figure is before debts are paid and the net is after - so there was quite a big difference.
Do you know when the ownership of the property was changed - is it possible that gran actually handed over the property to aunt previously?0 -
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I have the land registry document that shows my aunt became the owner in Nov 2014. My gran died 6 months earlier in April so it was put in my aunt's name after my gran died. The probate document is dated in June, and then there is a stamp "amended pursuant to order" dated in December. Any help would be appreciated.Flugelhorn said:the gross figure is before debts are paid and the net is after - so there was quite a big difference.
Do you know when the ownership of the property was changed - is it possible that gran actually handed over the property to aunt previously?0 -
Can't quite get my head around the figures at the moment - what would be the approx value of the house in 2014?
is there any possibility that Gran had significant debts (like the difference between the gross and nett??) and rather than sell the property to pay for them, aunt paid them off.
You need the accounts0 -
My aunt bought the house for £150,000. I've checked on property websites and that is about accurate for 2014
Knowing my grandparents it's extremely unlikely they had debts. They worked hard and paid their way. Could a debt be artificially created as a means to draw money out of the estate?
You're right. We need the accounts and I will ask for them. I doubt they will be forthcoming. Thank you0
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