Court of Protection - Thanks for all the replies.

fallen121

Thanks for all the replies. We will be taking advice as advised.

elsien

Is this in Scotland? 

Are the local authority involved? Would the person qualify for a deferred payment scheme?

https://careinfoscotland.scot/topics/care-homes/paying-care-home-fees/deferred-payment/

And just as important, is this something you want to do, because you don’t have to. 

The court of protection process is currently taking months for deputyships. There is a long backlog. In the meantime, your relative is not going to be put out on the streets. If the care home is quibbling, the local authority has an obligation to safeguard the person. If necessary they can guarantee the fees until the finances are sorted. 

You have no obligation to take this on if you don’t want to or can’t afford to. The LA will have a mechanism for a paid professional to apply for deputyship if there isn’t anyone else able to do so.

ETA all the above applies in England as well. 

If there’s nothing in place, the equity release company is just going to have to wait. You are not liable for it, and if your relative lacks capacity then there is nothing that can be done until the deputyship is sorted. However much they complain, their hands are tied. 

Keep_pedalling

Is this in relation to your estranged FIL? If so I would not get involved in managing his affairs. If no one in the family will do it then the LA will do it in order to pay for his care.

elsien

Also to add, if relative is getting a state pension you can access that by applying to be their DWP appointee while waiting to sort all the other stuff. This is quicker - 12 weeks ish in normal circumstances- which will give you access to some money on their behalf in the meantime. 

Again, if you want to. You are perfectly entitled to just walk away if you want to.
 I’m with keep_pedalling - if this is FIL then tell the professionals to sort it and leave you alone. The LA will make arrangements if they have to - it’s easier for them to just dump it all on a relative.  

fallen121

elsien said:

Is this in Scotland? 

Are the local authority involved? Would the person qualify for a deferred payment scheme?

https://careinfoscotland.scot/topics/care-homes/paying-care-home-fees/deferred-payment/

And just as important, is this something you want to do, because you don’t have to. 

The court of protection process is currently taking months for deputyships. There is a long backlog. In the meantime, your relative is not going to be put out on the streets. If the care home is quibbling, the local authority has an obligation to safeguard the person. If necessary they can guarantee the fees until the finances are sorted. 

You have no obligation to take this on if you don’t want to or can’t afford to. The LA will have a mechanism for a paid professional to apply for deputyship if there isn’t anyone else able to do so.

ETA all the above applies in England as well. 

If there’s nothing in place, the equity release company is just going to have to wait. You are not liable for it, and if your relative lacks capacity then there is nothing that can be done until the deputyship is sorted. However much they complain, their hands are tied. 

We are in Scotland. But our relative is in England.

fallen121

Keep_pedalling said:

Is this in relation to your estranged FIL? If so I would not get involved in managing his affairs. If no one in the family will do it then the LA will do it in order to pay for his care.

Good advice which we will be heeding. Thank you

elsien

Thinking about it a bit more, a deferred payment scheme isn’t going to be possible if there’s no deputy to sign the agreement.
But your relative is going to have to be housed in care if that is what they need, and how it is paid for really is not your problem unless you want it to be. 

I can give several direct recent examples where a person was moved into care. Case 1 - no property but no clue at all about whether the person had enough assets to self fund or not.
Case 2 - homeowner, equity release loan, again no information about bank accounts etc.
Case 3 - property owner, estranged family, no one willing to apply for deputyship. 

In all cases the local authority had to pay the fees until more information could be gathered for a financial assessment.
Case 3 - LA finally arranged for deputyship but have been paying the fees for the last 2 years and will continue to do so until the house is sold.

Does the person mean enough to you to want the stress of trying to arrange house clearance and a house sales from several hundred miles away? Or the stress and cost of paying for said house (insurance, utilities etc) in the hope you might get it back when the deputyship comes through? That’s what you need to be asking yourselves. 

No-one is asking you to deny that he exists. But social services are now involved. This is not new to them, people with dementia with little or no support networks for various reasons. They can sort it without you unless you choose to be part of it. That’s your decision, there isn’t a right or wrong answer. The Mental Capacity Act allows for professionals to make decisions on behalf of people who lack capacity - if there is no family willing or able to be consulted then they can involve advocates to represent the person instead. It doesn’t stop any necessary decisions from being made. 

All we are saying is don’t be guilt tripped by professionals hoping for a family member to step in. They can make the necessary decisions without you. Do what is right for you. 

fallen121

elsien said:

Also to add, if relative is getting a state pension you can access that by applying to be their DWP appointee while waiting to sort all the other stuff. This is quicker - 12 weeks ish in normal circumstances- which will give you access to some money on their behalf in the meantime. 

Again, if you want to. You are perfectly entitled to just walk away if you want to.
 I’m with keep_pedalling - if this is FIL then tell the professionals to sort it and leave you alone. The LA will make arrangements if they have to - it’s easier for them to just dump it all on a relative.  

Thank you for this.

elsien

fallen121 said:

elsien said:

Also to add, if relative is getting a state pension you can access that by applying to be their DWP appointee while waiting to sort all the other stuff. This is quicker - 12 weeks ish in normal circumstances- which will give you access to some money on their behalf in the meantime. 

Again, if you want to. You are perfectly entitled to just walk away if you want to.
 I’m with keep_pedalling - if this is FIL then tell the professionals to sort it and leave you alone. The LA will make arrangements if they have to - it’s easier for them to just dump it all on a relative.  

If we don't step then the LA will then go after my SIL (as the next nearest relative) to provide the care and take control and we don't believe that is in my FILs best interests and this is why.

My SIL is appears to have fallen in with and be living with a female partner who we think she has just recently taken up with based on the fact that she moved from East Sussex to Lincolnshire only 3 weeks ago to set up home with this person. We don't know this woman and she is nothing to do with the family but she seems to be trying to take financial control. She has talked repeatedly about how it is "expensive to visit" and they "need expenses".

The two of them visited a week ago, my FIL wasn't there so they went to a female neighbours house where he usually goes. Whilst there they tried to extract the debit card from my FIL "because we need to get you stuff" . He resisted. They then "took him out for lunch" and got him to agree to pay and (as we now know) retained the debit card. They then returned him home and left. Another male neighbour who helps with finances and bill paying visited later to see if FIL needed anything and noticed the debit card was not in its usual place, couldn't locate it anywhere, phoned us. I phoned the Bank and was able to get the card cancelled. Two days later my SIL and her partner drove some considerable distance from their house elsewhere in Lincolnshire to the female neighbour's house. Not a social call to see my FIL who was at home that day. In fact they never went to his house but went direct to the female neighbour where they banged on the front and back doors and called her repeatedly from their mobile phones. The conversation went something like this "We hope you're ok and haven't had a fall or anything but we need to know what has happened about the debit card because we tried to use it on Amazon last night and it seems that someone has cancelled the card. Was that you and why are you doing this? We really need that card." Neighbour was hiding under the stairs. Once they had gone she went to the male neighbour's house she was so distressed (she's 88) and he called us. Later he visited my FIL and discovered all the financial information cleared out. They had also vacuumed, cleaned the toilet and put some washing on. Very weird as on the previous 3 visits haven't done any housework at all.

It was a few days later that a gang of 5 random people turned up and took my FIL to the Bank. Nobody saw these people or knows who they were but apparently the police know. When we have them SIL's partner's phone number (obtained from female neighbour's phone using 1571) there was a sharp intake of breath and they said that there might be others involved.

We have NO IDEA what is going on but financial abuse was a factor in the safeguarding.

Now SIL can possibly claim she knows nothing about any of this but either way, if we walk away LA will take the easy route and leave it all to her. How can we stand by and allow an old man's savings to be !!!!!! away by criminals?

Not necessarily. The safeguarding should investigate these concerns, and the LA can liaise with the police. The outcome of the safeguarding could be that it is in his best interests to have a paid professional dealing with his finances. You could raise the concerns with social services and flag up what you have said here, and ask them to speak to sensible  neighbours about what happened. 

It’s a horrible thing to happen - I’d still suggest pushing the LA to check out all the concerns about SIL and her partner, and the gang and reiterating that he needs someone impartial sorting out his finances. Doesn’t prevent you from stepping back in if you feel you have to, but as it only really kicked off this morning the LA haven’t had time to do any formal safeguarding processes as yet. A safeguarding investigation needs to come up with protective measures. That’s the point at which decisions really need to be made. Give yourselves a bit more time to see what happens next.

74jax

Write, don't call, it could be an email, to social services. If they know SIL could /has taken money then now payment is needed they will start looking into finances.

In previous posts it has been mentioned to say you will not help. But it appears you are. It was suggested as you knew this was escalating not to answer unknown numbers, but you did. 

If you want to help, then do so. But you do not have too. You don't want his money, you don't want to help, so don't. 

Keep_pedalling

elsien said:

fallen121 said:

elsien said:

Also to add, if relative is getting a state pension you can access that by applying to be their DWP appointee while waiting to sort all the other stuff. This is quicker - 12 weeks ish in normal circumstances- which will give you access to some money on their behalf in the meantime. 

Again, if you want to. You are perfectly entitled to just walk away if you want to.
 I’m with keep_pedalling - if this is FIL then tell the professionals to sort it and leave you alone. The LA will make arrangements if they have to - it’s easier for them to just dump it all on a relative.  

If we don't step then the LA will then go after my SIL (as the next nearest relative) to provide the care and take control and we don't believe that is in my FILs best interests and this is why.

My SIL is appears to have fallen in with and be living with a female partner who we think she has just recently taken up with based on the fact that she moved from East Sussex to Lincolnshire only 3 weeks ago to set up home with this person. We don't know this woman and she is nothing to do with the family but she seems to be trying to take financial control. She has talked repeatedly about how it is "expensive to visit" and they "need expenses".

The two of them visited a week ago, my FIL wasn't there so they went to a female neighbours house where he usually goes. Whilst there they tried to extract the debit card from my FIL "because we need to get you stuff" . He resisted. They then "took him out for lunch" and got him to agree to pay and (as we now know) retained the debit card. They then returned him home and left. Another male neighbour who helps with finances and bill paying visited later to see if FIL needed anything and noticed the debit card was not in its usual place, couldn't locate it anywhere, phoned us. I phoned the Bank and was able to get the card cancelled. Two days later my SIL and her partner drove some considerable distance from their house elsewhere in Lincolnshire to the female neighbour's house. Not a social call to see my FIL who was at home that day. In fact they never went to his house but went direct to the female neighbour where they banged on the front and back doors and called her repeatedly from their mobile phones. The conversation went something like this "We hope you're ok and haven't had a fall or anything but we need to know what has happened about the debit card because we tried to use it on Amazon last night and it seems that someone has cancelled the card. Was that you and why are you doing this? We really need that card." Neighbour was hiding under the stairs. Once they had gone she went to the male neighbour's house she was so distressed (she's 88) and he called us. Later he visited my FIL and discovered all the financial information cleared out. They had also vacuumed, cleaned the toilet and put some washing on. Very weird as on the previous 3 visits haven't done any housework at all.

It was a few days later that a gang of 5 random people turned up and took my FIL to the Bank. Nobody saw these people or knows who they were but apparently the police know. When we have them SIL's partner's phone number (obtained from female neighbour's phone using 1571) there was a sharp intake of breath and they said that there might be others involved.

We have NO IDEA what is going on but financial abuse was a factor in the safeguarding.

Now SIL can possibly claim she knows nothing about any of this but either way, if we walk away LA will take the easy route and leave it all to her. How can we stand by and allow an old man's savings to be !!!!!! away by criminals?

Not necessarily. The safeguarding should investigate these concerns, and the LA can liaise with the police. The outcome of the safeguarding could be that it is in his best interests to have a paid professional dealing with his finances. You could raise the concerns with social services and flag up what you have said here, and ask them to speak to sensible  neighbours about what happened. 

It’s a horrible thing to happen - I’d still suggest pushing the LA to check out all the concerns about SIL and her partner, and the gang and reiterating that he needs someone impartial sorting out his finances. Doesn’t prevent you from stepping back in if you feel you have to, but as it only really kicked off this morning the LA haven’t had time to do any formal safeguarding processes as yet. A safeguarding investigation needs to come up with protective measures. That’s the point at which decisions really need to be made. Give yourselves a bit more time to see what happens next.

I totally agree, if you get deputyship you are likely to find yourself having to deal with dodgy relatives could make your life hell. There are lots of threads on this board where dishonest siblings make life very difficultly for people.

Report what you know to the safeguarding team, but make it clear that because of the estrangement and your distant location that you can’t take on the responsibilities of deputyship.

Your SIL is unlikely to be given deputyship based on her recent actions.