Rental deposit dispute - do I have valid arguments?

bed22

Hi there!

I am a student and have recently moved out of a flat I was renting with others for the last academic year. The property was managed by a letting agent on behalf of the landlord. Rather unfortunately (but not unsurprisingly according to the countless stories I hear from other students) we have been charged a bill for an end of tenancy professional clean (£220), which was taken from our deposit.

I have a few queries as to what our rights are with respect to filing a deposit dispute.

Firstly, we cleaned the place as best we could. Unfortunately for us though in the move-in inventory it states that the property was cleaned to a professional standard. Does this mean that we had to clean it professionally too at the end of our tenancy? It feels almost as though no matter how hard we had cleaned the property, a professional clean was always going to take place, in which case we stood no chance at keeping the money.

This leads me onto my second question. Upon inspection of the check-out report we received, it seems there was a bit of limescale that we must have overlooked when doing our clean. So fair enough, it's understandable that the landlord wants this cleaned. My question is though, is it within the landlords rights to charge us for the professional clean of the whole property when the only thing that required cleaning was a slightly limescale covered bit of glass? I can't argue the presence of the limescale, but can I argue the cost incurred in cleaning this would not total £220?

A slightly different issue that I'm unsure about is the way in which the deductions were taken from us. Our tenancy agreement stated that:

1) Any deductions must be notified to the tenants within 10 days of the tenancy ending

2) No deduction will be taken without written consent from both parties

Both of these were violated in the process - the letting agent did not communicate the fact that there would be deductions until 27 days after the end of tenancy, and we did not consent to the deductions being taken (we were not given any opportunity to even discuss the issues). They initially sent an email saying they were waiting for the landlord to approve the release of the deposit (5 days after the end of tenancy) and that we'd hear back soon. We did not hear back after 10 days of this email, so I called them asking for them to release the deposit.

This is when an inconsistency became apparent. They said that they were still waiting to hear back from the landlord and that we'd get more information soon. However, when we finally got this information (another 11 days later when I called them again), we were given an invoice for the professional clean that stated the clean took place only 2 days after the inital email from the agent (so 7 days after the end of tenancy). Clearly either the landlord did not communicate their intentions to profesionally clean the property to the letting agent, or the letting agent misinformed us that they were still waiting to hear back, even though the clean had already happened.

In light of the fact the tenancy agreement was broken, the deductions were taken without consent, and we were misinformed about the state of our deposit upon asking, can we claim the deductions were taken illegitimately, or even stolen? Do we have anything to stand on here?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

Pixie5740

bed22 said:

Hi there!

I am a student and have recently moved out of a flat I was renting with others for the last academic year. The property was managed by a letting agent on behalf of the landlord. Rather unfortunately (but not unsurprisingly according to the countless stories I hear from other students) we have been charged a bill for an end of tenancy professional clean (£220), which was taken from our deposit.

I have a few queries as to what our rights are with respect to filing a deposit dispute.

Firstly, we cleaned the place as best we could. Unfortunately for us though in the move-in inventory it states that the property was cleaned to a professional standard. Does this mean that we had to clean it professionally too at the end of our tenancy? It feels almost as though no matter how hard we had cleaned the property, a professional clean was always going to take place, in which case we stood no chance at keeping the money.

This leads me onto my second question. Upon inspection of the check-out report we received, it seems there was a bit of limescale that we must have overlooked when doing our clean. So fair enough, it's understandable that the landlord wants this cleaned. My question is though, is it within the landlords rights to charge us for the professional clean of the whole property when the only thing that required cleaning was a slightly limescale covered bit of glass? I can't argue the presence of the limescale, but can I argue the cost incurred in cleaning this would not total £220?

A slightly different issue that I'm unsure about is the way in which the deductions were taken from us. Our tenancy agreement stated that:

1) Any deductions must be notified to the tenants within 10 days of the tenancy ending

2) No deduction will be taken without written consent from both parties

Both of these were violated in the process - the letting agent did not communicate the fact that there would be deductions until 27 days after the end of tenancy, and we did not consent to the deductions being taken (we were not given any opportunity to even discuss the issues). They initially sent an email saying they were waiting for the landlord to approve the release of the deposit (5 days after the end of tenancy) and that we'd hear back soon. We did not hear back after 10 days of this email, so I called them asking for them to release the deposit.

This is when an inconsistency became apparent. They said that they were still waiting to hear back from the landlord and that we'd get more information soon. However, when we finally got this information (another 11 days later when I called them again), we were given an invoice for the professional clean that stated the clean took place only 2 days after the inital email from the agent (so 7 days after the end of tenancy). Clearly either the landlord did not communicate their intentions to profesionally clean the property to the letting agent, or the letting agent misinformed us that they were still waiting to hear back, even though the clean had already happened.

In light of the fact the tenancy agreement was broken, the deductions were taken without consent, and we were misinformed about the state of our deposit upon asking, can we claim the deductions were taken illegitimately, or even stolen? Do we have anything to stand on here?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

You have to leave the property in the same condition, minus any fair wear and tear, as it was in at the start of your tenancy.  That's it.  How you achieve that level of cleanliness is up to you.  You can do it yourself or you can pay someone to do it.  It does not matter.

How did the landlord/letting agent manage to make deductions without your knowledge or consent?  Your deposit should have been protected in one of the government backed schemes and the lead tenant (I'm assuming this was a joint tenancy) would have to have agreed to any deductions for it to have been released to the landlord by now.

Assuming this happened in England read Post 3: Deposits: Payment, Protection and Return taken from the sticky at the top of the board.

bed22

Pixie5740 said:

You have to leave the property in the same condition, minus any fair wear and tear, as it was in at the start of your tenancy.  That's it.  How you achieve that level of cleanliness is up to you.  You can do it yourself or you can pay someone to do it.  It does not matter.

Right, got it, thanks.

Pixie5740 said:

How did the landlord/letting agent manage to make deductions without your knowledge or consent?  Your deposit should have been protected in one of the government backed schemes and the lead tenant (I'm assuming this was a joint tenancy) would have to have agreed to any deductions for it to have been released to the landlord by now.

I phoned the agent asking for the deposit to be released as they had not responded to a previous email asking for our nominated bank details to send the deposit. I asked them over the phone just to check we would be sent the full amount. They then informed me for the first time that there were deductions being taken by the landlord. It was clear that, had I not asked, we would not have been told this information. Obviously upon finding out this information I immediately asked for more details, and stated that we were not happy with the deductions.

The only written correspondence we recieved from the agent was an email the day after the phone call saying we'd get £x amount of deposit returned within 3-7 working days, and that the landlord was seeking £220 deductions. As lead tenant I was sent the reduced deposit the next day. I had already expressed twice the fact that we did not agee with the deductions and that we wanted more information. I'm not sure what more I should have done to prevent them taking the deductions.

Pixie5740

bed22 said:

Pixie5740 said:

You have to leave the property in the same condition, minus any fair wear and tear, as it was in at the start of your tenancy.  That's it.  How you achieve that level of cleanliness is up to you.  You can do it yourself or you can pay someone to do it.  It does not matter.

Right, got it, thanks.

Pixie5740 said:

How did the landlord/letting agent manage to make deductions without your knowledge or consent?  Your deposit should have been protected in one of the government backed schemes and the lead tenant (I'm assuming this was a joint tenancy) would have to have agreed to any deductions for it to have been released to the landlord by now.

I phoned the agent asking for the deposit to be released as they had not responded to a previous email asking for our nominated bank details to send the deposit. I asked them over the phone just to check we would be sent the full amount. They then informed me for the first time that there were deductions being taken by the landlord. It was clear that, had I not asked, we would not have been told this information. Obviously upon finding out this information I immediately asked for more details, and stated that we were not happy with the deductions.

The only written correspondence we recieved from the agent was an email the day after the phone call saying we'd get £x amount of deposit returned within 3-7 working days, and that the landlord was seeking £220 deductions. As lead tenant I was sent the reduced deposit the next day. I had already expressed twice the fact that we did not agee with the deductions and that we wanted more information. I'm not sure what more I should have done to prevent them taking the deductions.

As the lead tenant you should have received the Prescribed Information (specific details of the deposit protection and a leaflet explaining how scheme used works) within 30 days of the deposit being paid. Did you receive this and what does it say will happen at the end of the tenancy and about disputes? I’m assuming that if the landlord is returning the deposit to you that it is an insurance backed scheme. 

bed22

Pixie5740 said:

As the lead tenant you should have received the Prescribed Information (specific details of the deposit protection and a leaflet explaining how scheme used works) within 30 days of the deposit being paid. Did you receive this and what does it say will happen at the end of the tenancy and about disputes? I’m assuming that if the landlord is returning the deposit to you that it is an insurance backed scheme. 

Yes the deposit was secured with MyDeposits. I did receive a deposit protection certificate and a leaflet with information which states in regards to disputes:

" Your Landlord may wish to make deductions from the deposit, if so we suggest you discuss the issues directly
with your Landlord. Your Landlord should return any agreed amount to you within 10 days of your request for
the deposit back. If you cannot agree the proposed deductions with your Landlord, you can raise a dispute with
my|deposits within 3 months of vacating the property. You must wait 10 days after requesting the deposit back
before raising the dispute. "

We never agreed an amount, and never discussed the issues despite requesting more information and taking issue with the deductions. I want to file a dispute through MyDeposits to address the issues outlined before, but I'm unsure if we have much to stand on even though they did break the agreement.

canaldumidi

bed22 said:

...

Firstly, we cleaned the place as best we could. Unfortunately for us though in the move-in inventory it states that the property was cleaned to a professional standard. Does this mean that we had to clean it professionally too at the end of our tenancy?

No.It means you must clean it "to a professional standard". as per the inventory. How you achieve this is up to you.

...

...Upon inspection of the check-out report we received, it seems there was a bit of limescale that we must have overlooked when doing our clean. So fair enough, it's understandable that the landlord wants this cleaned. My question is though, is it within the landlords rights to charge us for the professional clean of the whole property when the only thing that required cleaning was a slightly limescale covered bit of glass?

If you agree the limescale was not there when youmoved in,the LL can charge for cleaning the limescale. Not the whole property.

I can't argue the presence of the limescale, but can I argue the cost incurred in cleaning this would not total £220?

I'd advise you to get a quote for cleaning limescale of that type/in that place. Remember a cleaner will probably charge an hourly rate which is likely to include travelling time. But £220 seems excessive.

A slightly different issue that I'm unsure about is the way in which the deductions were taken from us. Our tenancy agreement stated that:

1) Any deductions must be notified to the tenants within 10 days of the tenancy ending

2) No deduction will be taken without written consent from both parties

Both of these were violated in the process - the letting agent did not communicate the fact that there would be deductions until 27 days after the end of tenancy, and we did not consent to the deductions being taken (we were not given any opportunity to even discuss the issues). They initially sent an email saying they were waiting for the landlord to approve the release of the deposit (5 days after the end of tenancy) and that we'd hear back soon. We did not hear back after 10 days of this email, so I called them asking for them to release the deposit.

Makes little difference to your dispute over the deposit.

This is when an inconsistency became apparent. They said that they were still waiting to hear back from the landlord and that we'd get more information soon. However, when we finally got this information (another 11 days later when I called them again), we were given an invoice for the professional clean that stated the clean took place only 2 days after the inital email from the agent (so 7 days after the end of tenancy). Clearly either the landlord did not communicate their intentions to profesionally clean the property to the letting agent, or the letting agent misinformed us that they were still waiting to hear back, even though the clean had already happened.

Makes little difference to your dispute over the deposit. Just focus on disputing the deduction.

In light of the fact the tenancy agreement was broken, the deductions were taken without consent, and we were misinformed about the state of our deposit upon asking, can we claim the deductions were taken illegitimately, or even stolen? Do we have anything to stand on here?

No.

If the deductions are fair, the timescale makes no difference.

If the deductions are not fair, raise a dispute.

Pixie5740

bed22 said:

Pixie5740 said:

As the lead tenant you should have received the Prescribed Information (specific details of the deposit protection and a leaflet explaining how scheme used works) within 30 days of the deposit being paid. Did you receive this and what does it say will happen at the end of the tenancy and about disputes? I’m assuming that if the landlord is returning the deposit to you that it is an insurance backed scheme. 

Yes the deposit was secured with MyDeposits. I did receive a deposit protection certificate and a leaflet with information which states in regards to disputes:

" Your Landlord may wish to make deductions from the deposit, if so we suggest you discuss the issues directly
with your Landlord. Your Landlord should return any agreed amount to you within 10 days of your request for
the deposit back. If you cannot agree the proposed deductions with your Landlord, you can raise a dispute with
my|deposits within 3 months of vacating the property. You must wait 10 days after requesting the deposit back
before raising the dispute. "

We never agreed an amount, and never discussed the issues despite requesting more information and taking issue with the deductions. I want to file a dispute through MyDeposits to address the issues outlined before, but I'm unsure if we have much to stand on even though they did break the agreement.

You won’t know if don’t try. The onus is on the landlord to prove the deductions are reasonable. 

bed22

canaldumidi said:

If the deductions are fair, the timescale makes no difference.

If the deductions are not fair, raise a dispute.

Thanks for the breakdown. Quick question though, I get that the tenancy agreement violations are a seperate issue to the fairness of the deductions, but both parties signed the agreement as a legally binding contract. At what point does violating said agreement lead to financial recompense? What's the point in it otherwise if breaking it has no consequence?

Marvel1

bed22 said:

We never agreed an amount, and never discussed the issues despite requesting more information and taking issue with the deductions. I want to file a dispute through MyDeposits to address the issues outlined before, but I'm unsure if we have much to stand on even though they did break the agreement.

Do it right now.

anselld

bed22 said:

canaldumidi said:

If the deductions are fair, the timescale makes no difference.

If the deductions are not fair, raise a dispute.

Thanks for the breakdown. Quick question though, I get that the tenancy agreement violations are a seperate issue to the fairness of the deductions, but both parties signed the agreement as a legally binding contract. At what point does violating said agreement lead to financial recompense? What's the point in it otherwise if breaking it has no consequence?

If we go through the agreement with a fine tooth comb we are no doubt going to find areas where you have breached the agreement, no matter how minor.  Are you going to translate all those into financial recompense for the Landlord?  No.

The bottom line is that the L has up to six years to claim for damages if they can prove them.  10 days to notify is an aim and it is not allways practical to achieve so not sure why it is even in the agreement but it is not relevant to your case.  The L cannot make deductions from the deposit without consent through the DPS scheme so that is also a non-issue.

What is important is the fairness or otherwise of the proposed deductions and that is what the scheme is there for.  Make a claim and let them decide.

bbat

Absolutely file a dispute and see what happens, and do it now. 

I know it's annoying getting advice after something happens but i learnt the hart way with this in days before deposit protection. Take photos of condition start of tenancy and after cleaning end of tenancy in case of dispute. Also  Buy some Viakal for limescale. Requires no effort, spray it on, leave it and then wipe down. If I was cleaning I'd charge for minimum call out fee for that, which could be one or two hours.