National Insurance contributions to rise by 1.25% points from April 2022 to fund social care costs

Thrugelmir

RubyClarke2021 said:

I agree with the above statement. I don't see why we should have to pay any tax at all.

Do you know a good stockist of magic money trees?  I'm struggling to find any. 

unkle

Sea_Shell said:

unkle said:

Sea_Shell said:

billy2shots said:

In case some people are not aware, us care providers have to give a breakdown of costs to the paying local authority (the funding council). 

These costs are broken down into quite small detail however in simple terms it's very clear to see the 'cost of care' and the 'cost of environment' or hotel cost so to speak. 


The sceptic in me thinks the government have been clever with their wording as in a lifetime cap of £85000 towards someone's "care'. 

I wouldn't be surprised if those in care (with savings) have to pay for the 'hotel' element of their stay with no cap on that. 

Out of interest @billy2shots , in your professional experience, what proportion of the total weekly care bill is "personal" care, roughly, on average?

40% 50% 60%?

FWIW and this dates back to ending mid 2017. Just over 5 years in a home cost my father £276k, of which £81k was care costs.

They'll sound like pretty "catastrophic costs" to a lot of people!!!

He didn't even reach the proposed cap!

It does very a bit depending on where in the country you are I think, but I don't think my numbers will vary wildly and that's the issue. Anyone who reaches the cap will likely have spent 1/4 million in total, probably more in the SE.

csgohan4

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58489188

It seems people are understandably protective of not selling their parent's home to maximize inheritance. But the first case on there mentions about investing in a non tax wrapper which is not great.

It maybe controversial, but why should the taxpayer pay for someone's inheritance? 

You need care, you have the means to at the time, contribute it, should your assets fall below x, fair enough state will pick it up. Seems some people are not happy not having an inheritance rather than worry about the quality they will get from State care homes

inheritance is what's left when someone has passed away not before. 

If you truly want an NHS style Social care, free at point of entry, then you need pay for it via taxes, oh wait no one wants that do they, but they still complain about it not being totally free and don't want to pay for it either. Sustainable is not something alot of people think of and nor about ensuring the country is not further debt ridden. 

Since the measures were announced, it appears the coined term is so valid, you give then an inch, they want mile. Not enough funding, not enough this and that.

Bottom line is, you want all the extras and bells and whistles then you got to pay for it. Do you want to pay an extra 5-10% tax then? It's a fine balance between taxation and ensuring funding for services, of which in order to do this you need invariably higher taxation which is not palatable and the population nor has the appetite for this and political suicide too. 

Do you want a system like in Malaysia, where there is minimal welfare available and if you have no money, your on your own. No 100% handouts, no free state Care home. I see these elderly frail people working in food court pushing trolleys and it is heart breaking, but people complain of the system here, which while not perfect has some safety net. 

LandOfConfusion

[Deleted User] said:

This is awful, I'm getting absolutely hammered at a time when I really can't afford it because house prices are rising insanely fast.

But you can bet most people will roll over and pay, as usual.

The sad fact is the system is rigged against people like you & me. Polls have repeatedly shown that Tory client voters absolutely hate the idea of paying for their own care, whether that's at the point of consumption or though taxes before they need them and so the burden has accumulated and now has to be paid - by the young.

As I see it:

• You've already been paying for the widely attacked triple-lock pensions, pensions which have been deemed by both House of Commons and House of Lords select committees as unsustainable as there won't be enough people of working age to support us in the same way come retirement.
• House prices have been inflated by stealthily borrowing from your future income. These increases ultimately accumulate wealth at the top, where most pensioners are.
• Wealthy pensioners have a cap on how much they have to pay for care, the rest being borne by you! But don't worry, they can still pass the savings on to their descendants.
• VAT increases, fuel duties, insurance taxes, pension raids and now increases to NI; you are ultimately going to be paying the lion's share of that.
• And let's not forget student loans. If you're over 60 you still don't have to pay but don't worry, I'll be the cheapest debt you'll ever have. For a few years until they start seeing it as another revenue source. Oh hang on, that's already happened.
  

But there is some good news: If you live in Scotland the bribes free money from England won't stop!

 

csgohan4

If you want to not pay loads of tax either illegally or legally:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-italy-economy-taxavoidance-idUKKBN1WB20R

Where the country end up from a health and social point of view?

If you want  a safety net, pay for it, if you do but don't want to pay for it,  then clearly one doesn't understand Simple economics/Maths. Money does not grow on magic trees. You want something, it has to be paid for, there is no such thing as a free lunch. 

If you have no means to pay for it, unlike some countries, the U.K will help and assist but don't expect a gold standard service understandably, which sadly some people do, because the perception I paid for it through my taxes I am 'entitled' to the best. 

The government printing more GBP is not an option and will lead to consequences, not to mention inflation and paying bread by the wheelbarrow. 

RyanHello

csgohan4 said:

If you want to not pay loads of tax either illegally or legally:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-italy-economy-taxavoidance-idUKKBN1WB20R

Where the country end up from a health and social point of view?

If you want  a safety net, pay for it, if you do but don't want to pay for it,  then clearly one doesn't understand Simple economics/Maths. Money does not grow on magic trees. You want something, it has to be paid for, there is no such thing as a free lunch. 

If you have no means to pay for it, unlike some countries, the U.K will help and assist but don't expect a gold standard service understandably, which sadly some people do, because the perception I paid for it through my taxes I am 'entitled' to the best. 

The government printing more GBP is not an option and will lead to consequences, not to mention inflation and paying bread by the wheelbarrow. 

This money raised from the NI increase will just get swallowed up by the NHS. It will fix nothing.

Johnson is finished next GE, I can assure you of that.

Either the Tories will get rid of him or he'll get voted out.

11 years the tories have been in charge. What a mess they've done done to the NHS.. 

We keep saying "Oh, it'll be worse under Labour"... will it though? 

Rishi Sunak March 2021 -- A year after the pandemic..

LandOfConfusion

csgohan4 said:
If you want  a safety net, pay for it, if you do but don't want to pay for it,

+1 but in reality it's just vote against those that threaten to raise taxes and let the next generation pay for it. Seems to have worked so far.

If you have no means to pay for it, unlike some countries, the U.K will help and assist but don't expect a gold standard service understandably, which sadly some people do, because the perception I paid for it through my taxes I am 'entitled' to the best.

"I paid tax therefore I'm entitled" is the generalised argument and yes it conveniently side-steps the fact that they may well have paid in 100% tax but over the same period took out something like 125%.

And yes, I've had this debate many times with the wealthy retired/retiring and funnily enough they always go quiet after I bring that up.

RyanHello said:

Johnson is finished next GE, I can assure you of that.

I'd like to believe this but look at all that's happened - and he's still in power. In fact look at all that he's done and the fact that he even made it to the cabinet shows just how screwed up our political system is.

Also the BBC did an interview a few days ago in one of the former Labour but now Tory constituencies. Many there still intend to "lend my vote" to the Tories at the next election. Well if they can't see what's happening (and TBH they have voted Labour/Brown in the past so...) then there's probably no hope.

csgohan4

RyanHello said:

csgohan4 said:

If you want to not pay loads of tax either illegally or legally:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-italy-economy-taxavoidance-idUKKBN1WB20R

Where the country end up from a health and social point of view?

If you want  a safety net, pay for it, if you do but don't want to pay for it,  then clearly one doesn't understand Simple economics/Maths. Money does not grow on magic trees. You want something, it has to be paid for, there is no such thing as a free lunch. 

If you have no means to pay for it, unlike some countries, the U.K will help and assist but don't expect a gold standard service understandably, which sadly some people do, because the perception I paid for it through my taxes I am 'entitled' to the best. 

The government printing more GBP is not an option and will lead to consequences, not to mention inflation and paying bread by the wheelbarrow. 

This money raised from the NI increase will just get swallowed up by the NHS. It will fix nothing.

Johnson is finished next GE, I can assure you of that.

Either the Tories will get rid of him or he'll get voted out.

11 years the tories have been in charge. What a mess they've done done to the NHS.. 

We keep saying "Oh, it'll be worse under Labour"... will it though? 

Rishi Sunak March 2021 -- A year after the pandemic..

How do you propose to fund the broken underfunded system? Good will if not through a form of taxation? If you were a NHS/Carers, would you work free for the good of the country?

The health secretary pointed, yes we don't have to raise taxes, but the waiting lists will get longer, so which is it? A more funded service or complain about something but don't want to put your hands in your pockets? Which is the typical response I am seeing on here. 

People seem to think the Government has a magic money tree. Basic economics is on sustainability. Yes Gov can borrow more, but at what cost? Future generations to suffer? People are already suffering from the outcome of Brexit now, add that more debt and you won't have much change to fund services. 

The common argument the rich should pay more and the fat cats earn too much is typical labour rubbish. You think everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouths with a government gateway ID to hand?

I think the super rich could afford it, but they make what 1% of the population and contribute about 30% of the budget. More normal people who earn over 80k who are classed as 'rich' will be taxed more and rightly so, but they unlike the super rich, it is not pocket money, it is pain either way, whether you earn 20 k or 100k. 

Or do you want to go down the French Route and slap on 60% IHT, oh wait, people will be up in arms on my 'entitled' Inheritance. 

What ever way you go, it will not be popular with the masses. Sadly some people do not see that some policies are for the good of the country as a whole. Humans are naturally selfish and only think about themselves. They don't care how much debt the country is amassing and how much it will cost.

They only care about their bank account and inheritance realistically.The BBC article I quoted earlier, all mention about loss of inheritance which is sad rather than getting better care for the person involved. 

Money does not belong to you until they pass and should be used for their betterment, anything else is a luxury. 

Regarding the above tweet, wouldn't you worried if a party is set in stone and rigid on their policies during wartime. I think you would be complaining if the Tories didn't raise tax or didn't fund the social care  with a magic money tree. A party that makes tough decisions to ensure sustainability is the right thing to do, although unpopular, and as with all opposition parties they opposed it without coming up how to fund it if they were in power, Magic trees anyone?.

Look at the triple lock decision, it would have been artificially raised due to furlough, how is that the wrong decision? increase of >8% when the rest of us takes a hit? But oh no some people are complaining, I am entitled to this and I paid my taxes blah. 

Pennywise

RyanHello said:

This money raised from the NI increase will just get swallowed up by the NHS. It will fix nothing.

Johnson is finished next GE, I can assure you of that.

Either the Tories will get rid of him or he'll get voted out.

11 years the tories have been in charge. What a mess they've done done to the NHS.. 

We keep saying "Oh, it'll be worse under Labour"... will it though? 

Rishi Sunak March 2021 -- A year after the pandemic..

My worry is that Rishi will become PM, and that really would be a disaster.  At least we know Boris is an incompetent idiot.  Rishi is dangerous - he's very intelligent and knows how to twist things for his own advantage.  I'd rather have Boris the baffoon.

Jeremy535897

Pennywise said:

RyanHello said:

This money raised from the NI increase will just get swallowed up by the NHS. It will fix nothing.

Johnson is finished next GE, I can assure you of that.

Either the Tories will get rid of him or he'll get voted out.

11 years the tories have been in charge. What a mess they've done done to the NHS.. 

We keep saying "Oh, it'll be worse under Labour"... will it though? 

Rishi Sunak March 2021 -- A year after the pandemic..

My worry is that Rishi will become PM, and that really would be a disaster.  At least we know Boris is an incompetent idiot.  Rishi is dangerous - he's very intelligent and knows how to twist things for his own advantage.  I'd rather have Boris the baffoon.

I agree that Boris Johnson chooses to play the buffoon when it suits him, but I think you underestimate him. He won a scholarship to Oxford, so I doubt he can be an idiot. He is the first Conservative leader who will use blatant lies to win votes (something Labour leaders learned long ago, using the excuse that the ends justify the means), and he can be utterly ruthless (Hammond, Soames etc).