Landlord not registered flats as separate, creating difficulties regarding council tax & bills

RAS

SN2021 said:

RAS said:

Yes, both you and your neighbour. Whether the Council would apportion half of what the LL had paid before pursuing you for the rest, I don't know. They could go for the lot and leave you to chase the landlord for the rebate.

@CIS

Have you checked the Planning Portal to see if the split was done officially, I'd be worried about fire breaks etc.

Are you on the electoral roll?

I have checked the local authority database of planning applications and there is a post from 2013 for the property for "Alterations to create 1 new flat".

I am not on the electoral roll here yet, I have only moved in the last couple of weeks.

I'd suggest you have a closer look at the 2013 planning application to see whether it actually coincides with what's been done.

Wait for CIS to reply re the Council Tax. Speak to your neighbour ASAP re the electricity meter and then raise it with the EA if it's still unsatisfactory.

I don't think you can claim mis-selling but I suspect that if you make it plain to the EA that you are going to raise the whole matter with the Council re the electoral roll and Council Tax rather than risk them chasing you later, the LL might be glad to see you leave.

SN2021

lr1277 said:

Do you have an EICR? I believe the landlord has to provide this as it is a legal obligation. It is meant to be produced every 5 years, if memory serves.

If you don’t have an EICR and one needs to be produced, you will have decide if you want to be in when the electrician is doing their survey. Depends on your view of covid. If you don’t want to be in, then LL/LA will have to supervise.
This report might and I say might highlight that two properties are on one electricity meter. But this may also depend on what the electrician is told before carrying out their survey.

Thank you for the reply.

The documents sent through on the contract that relate to electricity are the EPC and a "Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance" produced by NICEIC completed in 2016 and relates to 43 A South Street it says there was a rewire of all circuits. 

SN2021

RAS said:

SN2021 said:

RAS said:

Yes, both you and your neighbour. Whether the Council would apportion half of what the LL had paid before pursuing you for the rest, I don't know. They could go for the lot and leave you to chase the landlord for the rebate.

@CIS

Have you checked the Planning Portal to see if the split was done officially, I'd be worried about fire breaks etc.

Are you on the electoral roll?

I have checked the local authority database of planning applications and there is a post from 2013 for the property for "Alterations to create 1 new flat".

I am not on the electoral roll here yet, I have only moved in the last couple of weeks.

I'd suggest you have a closer look at the 2013 planning application to see whether it actually coincides with what's been done.

Wait for CIS to reply re the Council Tax. Speak to your neighbour ASAP re the electricity meter and then raise it with the EA if it's still unsatisfactory.

I don't think you can claim mis-selling but I suspect that if you make it plain to the EA that you are going to raise the whole matter with the Council re the electoral roll and Council Tax rather than risk them chasing you later, the LL might be glad to see you leave.

Thank you for the reply. Okay, I will look further into that, beyond the local authority database are there any other sites that I should be looking at regarding checking planning applications and what to look out for?

Okay will wait for reply.

Okay, thank you, that can be used as some kind of leeway then. 

MaryNB

SN2021 said:

lr1277 said:

Do you have an EICR? I believe the landlord has to provide this as it is a legal obligation. It is meant to be produced every 5 years, if memory serves.

If you don’t have an EICR and one needs to be produced, you will have decide if you want to be in when the electrician is doing their survey. Depends on your view of covid. If you don’t want to be in, then LL/LA will have to supervise.
This report might and I say might highlight that two properties are on one electricity meter. But this may also depend on what the electrician is told before carrying out their survey.

Thank you for the reply.

The documents sent through on the contract that relate to electricity are the EPC and a "Building Regulations Certificate of Compliance" produced by NICEIC completed in 2016 and relates to 43 A South Street it says there was a rewire of all circuits. 

Does that include an Electrical Installation Certificate? I believe in the case of a total rewire that can be provided instead of an EICR. However, an EICR will have to be provided after 5 years so if it's dated pre September 2016 you need to be provided with an EICR.

From Guide for landlords: electrical safety standards in the private rented sector
Landlords can provide a copy of the EIC to tenants and, if requested, the local authority. The landlord will then not be required to carry out further checks or provide a report for 5 years after the EIC has been issued, as long as they have complied with their duty or duties under the Regulations.

EPC doesn't relate to the electrical installation, it's just the energy performance of the house. 

SN2021

Thank you, the document is from November 2016 so is within the 5 years.

It's a 1 page document and names an installer and an installation date. It says its a "Certificate of Compliance for your installation work" and the "notifiable work" listed is "electrical" and "rewire of all circuits" 

MaryNB

SN2021 said:

Thank you, the document is from November 2016 so is within the 5 years.

It's a 1 page document and names an installer and an installation date. It says its a "Certificate of Compliance for your installation work" and the "notifiable work" listed is "electrical" and "rewire of all circuits" 

I'm not an electrician or a landlord but that doesn't sound sufficient, I think you need a proper EIC. Mine is 3 pages and includes details of the installation, supply characteristics, a table with circuit details and testing results amongst other information.

ETA: Front page of mine looks like this:

SN2021

MaryNB said:

SN2021 said:

Thank you, the document is from November 2016 so is within the 5 years.

It's a 1 page document and names an installer and an installation date. It says its a "Certificate of Compliance for your installation work" and the "notifiable work" listed is "electrical" and "rewire of all circuits" 

I'm not an electrician or a landlord but that doesn't sound sufficient, I think you need a proper EIC. Mine is 3 pages and includes details of the installation, supply characteristics, a table with circuit details and testing results amongst other information.

ETA: Front page of mine looks like this:

Thank you, mine is just a page of A4 listing work done. I will contact the estate agent about this and the meter. 

lr1277

I am sure I read wrt to the EICR that all new tenancies and all existing tenancies need an EICR now, irrespective of other compliance documents. Suggest you read either the tenant’s guide to EICR or the landlord’s guide to EICR to get more specific information. Sorry can’t do links as I am writing this on my tablet.

CIS

SN2021 said:

I moved into a 1 bed flat within the last month that used to be part of a larger bungalow with the next door flat. Both flats have their own name but share a flat number (i.e. "House name", 43 South Street). The bungalow was separated into two flats at least 4 years ago and each has its own door outside, there is no shared space. 

The property was advertised with the council tax included in the rent. It is managed by the estate agents for the landlord. It is a fixed term 12 month tenancy agreement with a break clause only at the end of the fixed term. 

The issue that I have is that the flats have not been registered with the council, land registry, royal mail etc so the landlord can pay less council tax. 

My suspicions first arose when trying to set up broadband for the property. For each of the providers (BT, Sky etc) the only property listed was the numbered bungalow (i.e. 43 South Street). One provider told me the flats would have to be registered as separate for them to install broadband. The estate agent said the neighbour had similar issues but found there is a communal connection with one broadband provider which they can use. 

The only property listed on the land registry and governments Council tax band website is the original bungalow (43 South Street). 

Though each flat has its own boiler, there only seems to be one electricity meter as my account for the meter just says the flat number (43 South Street). 

The landlord is most definitely not registering the separate flats so that they can pay less council tax then get a quick and easy rent. This was highlighted to me by the estate agent who I contacted with my concerns, they contacted the landlord and said in an email "The flats aren't registered as individual properties and that is why the council tax is included in the rent."

Because of all this, the complications it causes and the potential risks it creates for the future I would like to end the tenancy early and was wondering about what my options are. I'm also going to contact shelter and citizens advice. 

One option I've seen is the "Right to unwind" which applies within the first 90 days of a tenancy and applies when the tenancy was signed due to misleading or aggressive action. 

Are there any other options for ending the tenancy early?

Sounds about right from managing agents. If they were anywhere near competent then they'd spot the issue and advise the landlord.

In this case the property should be registered as two separate assessments for council tax purposes, if not under s3 LGFA 1992 then under Article 3 (most likely the latter). It is not a HMO for council tax purposes.

If the VOA spot it and backdate then the council tax charge would follow, and you'd receive a backdated council tax bill to pay. You'd need to then separately pursue the landlord.

The one tip I always give people is to  very, very, careful about any property that states council tax is included in the rent as it's the number one indicator that something dodgy might be going on.

CIS

Philomel said:

I'm curious: if the landlord is paying the council tax why is the tenant liable for the shortfall? I'm asking because my sister recently had to move out of a warehouse flat when it became clear that the landlord hadn't declared it as a residential property. She and flatmates had been told council tax was included in rent. Nobody came after the tenants for additional tax altho the landlord was pursued for various monies afaik. Should she have actually been liable for the council tax and just got away with it because the landlord was a bigger concern? 

Yes, it is potentially a problem. Any assessment will be corrected at some point and, if backdated, they then could get landed with the bill. I see these a cases a lot from clients and it can get very expensive, and very messy.