Am I a tenant? What rights do I have? What are my options?

Thai9x

looking for opinions/advice on what I am legally.

I occupy a relatives address, they do not live here.

I am responsible for all bills including council tax. I have been here on and off for 12 years ( this period consistently for the past 4 years. )
there has never been a tenancy agreement, physical or verbal or informal. 
no rental payments have ever been made, or in kind.

the reason I ask, is the owner has requested I pay rent.. and says that in fact, I owe rent for the time I have been here.

now, I am happy to agree to pay rent and become a proper tenant here. I do not agree that I owe rent, when there has never been any agreement or payments made or expected until now.

the property is in Wales, which I believe for somebody to rent their property out, needs to be registered as a landlord etc and do all of the things any other landlord should. IE gas and electrical safety inspections, landlords insurance, protected deposit schemes, tenancy agreement etc.

of course, none of the above is in place at present.

unfortunately, communication has broken down between the owner and I, we are still civil and they still would like me to stay here. however they prefer all communication is done via the solictor.  so before I make any offer /suggestion/ etc I wanted to understand a bit better on what my situation is.

hopefully someone can explain all of my options etc..

thanks

canaldumidi

If you don't pay rent, you are not a tenant. But bear in mind 'rent' does not have to be money - if you contribute to the owner's wealth eg by paying for improvements to the property as a condition of lving there, that is 'rent'.

He cannot make you pay back rent if no previous agreement for this existed.

But he can now insist that you become a tenant ad pay rent in future. You can either agree, negotiate on the level of rent, or leave.

If you do now become a tenant, your landlord will need to comply with all the relevant legislation,incuding registering with Rent Wales, and paying tax to HMRC!

Thai9x

that is interesting,

I have done a lot of work at the property, it is what I do for a living. ( construction/electrician )
however 99% of the work was carried out whilst the owner also resided here ( they only left early this year, and thats when I took over all bills officially, ie in my own name.  the owner now lives and is registered at another address. )

I am partially through a kitchen renovation that began before the owner left, but whilst I was cracking on with that ( it benefits me too afterall )    since we have had this uncertainty I have stopped work, just to minimise losses should I in fact lose anything.

regards rental, I wouldnt feel it fair that I pay full rent whilst still expected to carry out work at the property.
so my next conundrum is what do I offer? ie. 50% of market rental value for X months on the condition that works progress/complete?

I am currently saving for a deposit on my own property in a lifetime ISA at the maximum amount, which will be saved in 22 months. so will need to rent until that time at least.

I feel that I am in a bit of a grey area legally as I am not a tenant yet nor am I excluded ( as ive never paid rent )  so do I have any rights or can the owner simply arrive with police and boot me out (  this is almost certainly not something they would do, nor would I allow things to escalate that far regardless.. but I would like to know )

canaldumidi

It does sound as if you were a lodger (sharing with landlord) until early this year, and a tenant thereafter.

Based on the fact that in both cases the owner/landlord expected you to undertake the renovation, using your professional skills, in return for having a place to live.

In which case you have all the rights and protections of a tenant, and he has all the obligations of a landlord.

Having said that, he clearly does not recognise this, plus as you say it is a 'grey area'.

In the end, only a court could decide if my interpretation is right or not, so unless things go t*ts-up and it goes to court there will always be doubt.

So - what to do? Reach some amicable agreement whereby you can remain there till you are ready to buy elsewhere, in return for whatever you think is reasonable ie some combination of cash and/or professional skills.

As for whether you then make him comply with leglislation, well, that's up to you, and how much you want to rock the boat Vs how much you want to enforce your rights.

Murphybear

This sounds like a grey area.  You need some professional advice, best  from Shelter who are specialists in housing issues.  

macman

What is clear is that there was no tenancy agreement until the LL moved out earlier this year, as until then he shared the property, making you either a lodger or an excluded occupier. So there's no question of 'back rent'. 
Whether a legal tenancy has now been created is, as stated above, is not clear.

deannagone

I think as advised, things have to be laid out clearly.  Who will pay what amount for what.  Will the owner pay for the refurb costs if you pay rent?  How much per hour, who will pay for the things needed.  It would seem, as its now September, and the kitchen was started some months ago, this might cause some friction on both sides.  If you are living there rent free (which is your side of the discussion) in return for refurb.., there isn't a lot of that going on, and hasn't for some time.  You don't feel its fair to be asked for rent for some of the 12 years you have been living there.  I am trying to say there are issues on both sides.  Obviously the uncertainty of your position caused this stoppage of work.  But we don't know how much work you have done so can't comment..

I would make a list of the refurb you have done (if you haven't already), compile a list of receipts for refurb items bought, and hours worked, when suggesting that the owner got a good deal over the last 12 years.  But appreciate that you have had rent free living for a long time, which will have saved you many thousands in rent costs, how much obviously depends on where you are living and how much it would cost to rent there.  If you have qualifications re building work, that would help illustrate you have put in good value.  If you don't then I am afraid you are more of a handyman, whose work will be of less value (sorry).

I know you have paid bills to some degree, but you'd have had to pay those anywhere, wherever you lived.  Perhaps you can halve the amount paid when you are working out what living there has saved/cost you and ask for these costs to be shared.

theoretica

deannagone said:

I would make a list of the refurb you have done (if you haven't already), compile a list of receipts for refurb items bought, and hours worked, when suggesting that the owner got a good deal over the last 12 years. 

I would suggest a different approach - the past is over and was managed according to the agreement at the time.  You don't want to relive it blow by blow. What matters, and can be arranged, is what happens going forward.

What is the market rate for the work you have left to do?  What is the market rent for the property? Fair to both of you would be market rates in both directions, and everything done to a professional standard.  Probably arranged so money does not actually go in both directions.

theartfullodger

As you pay for all bills IMHO you are a tenant.

Rent does not just have to be ££££.  It can be "money's worth", so paying for everything IMHO means you are already paying rent.

What evidence do you have of redecorating, maintenance, repairs, improvements, etc etc please?

Titus_Wadd

I'd agree that there was no discussion of rent in the past so only the arrangement going forward can be...well...arranged.  Maybe get some leaflets or web-links to show the responsibilities of landlords in Wales; there'll be costs in setting up themselves up as a landlord.  Shop around to see what sort of rent you would pay for an equivalent home, or get a letting agent around for an estimate of rent (with a half-done kitchen).

Add in the difficulty in finding a kitchen fitter to complete the work already started, or submit a bill for the work done so far and to finish the job (reasonable or extortionate). 

I think it's fair to set up a proper lease once the relative has set themselves up as a landlord if that's what they want to do, but that puts your building or decorating work on a new footing as well.  I'm not a lawyer so please don't rely on anything here, it's just a gut reaction.  I hope you get it sorted and get back on good terms with your relative; money can have a nasty effect on relationships.