Doozergirl, please advise.... Steels needed? New layout?

warwick2001

Hi Doozergirl,

Apologies for requesting you specifically, but you seem so knowledgeable about these issues, and I could really use your advice. (Is that enough sucking up? I can give you more if necessary )

We are currently looking to buy this house:

3 bedroom semi-detached house for sale in Holme Riggs Avenue, Penrith, CA11 (rightmove.co.uk)

It needs huge amounts of work, but to start with we would like to knock down the wall between the kitchen and dinning room to open it up and give us more space for a kitchen/dinner. The current kitchen is very small, and as you can see in the photos in the listing, it desperately need modernised. The wall is within a flat-roofed extension that was built late 60's/early 70's, and appears to be red brick. As you can see in the floorplan, the extension was built additional to the outer wall, i.e. they didn't remove the outer-skin of the brickwork and use the inner wall of the extension as the outer wall of the original house (if that makes sense?). If we took this wall out, do you think it would need an RSJ for support. I know you can't give me a definitive answer, and we would get a structural engineer in before we do anything, but was wondering what your initial thoughts are looking at the pics?

Also, the ground floor layout is:





We would ideally remove the wall between the sitting room and the living room (as well as the previously mentioned kitchen/dinning room wall) to create an open plan downstairs, and would put in a wall in the grey bit to create a small utility room. Ideally we would like a downstairs toilet, but we are intending to put on a full length extension in about 5-7 years, so having one right now isn't a priority:





Can you think of a better way to use the space? Sorry for asking so much, but some of the ideas you have come up with for other users on the forum have been great, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this.

Rosa_Damascena

Unlike Doozer, I'm a novice...but are you sure there isn't an RSJ in situ?

And does everything have to be steel? I was surprised to have a supporting small concrete lintel installed over an old doorway that cost all of £200.

warwick2001

Hi Rosa,

Novice opinions welcome as well

Given the age of the extension, and the general quality of workmanship, I suspect there is not a lintel there (there would be no reason to be as it's a solid wall with a very small archway window in it (see pic 4 in the listing)). However, as we can't knock a hole in the wall to check at the moment, I was kinda expecting the worst, and assuming there isn't one. If there already is one there, then happy days!!!

And it certainly doesn't have to be steel, but speaking to a few tradesmen friends I have, they all said steel rather than concrete, so maybe that's a modern way of thinking? Maybe easier to use? No idea myself, I just go with what people tell me.

NSG666

Just an observation that the kitchen/garden store section of the flat roof is higher than the dining room roof suggesting that the former was built first. If the wall you are looking to remove is not supporting the dining room section it will possibly be supporting the kitchen section so might need an RSJ or the roof above the kitchen re-configuring so that the RSJ is not necessary. Obviously down to survey and architect to determine best/cost effective measure.

Doozergirl

It's a single storey extension, so there's nothing to support above, but that wall between the kitchen and dining room is incredibly thick for a wall - could it possibly be two extensions?  

It probably doesn't need steel at all, but it might want some sort of help if it is two extensions.  

The video is really useful but he didn't show the back of the house, which is what I really wanted to see. 

When you're designing your utility, I would block up on the line of the original back wall as the original corner is currently not well supported,  but do think about the long term plan for the house - will the current side door be needed as an access into the future side extension?   You can extend the hallway round to the side door, leaving you with left with something the perfect size and location (given the current bathroom waste position) for a downstairs loo.  The utility may well be better suited to the extension in future.  

Really consider the whole future floor plan as it may well affect the kitchen design.  Start planning now!  How will the side extension be set out downstairs?  

Also, I wouldn't knock through between the original reception rooms. Leave the front one as it is at least to start with.  It will never feel like one room, it will
always feel like a separate zone and the proportions are perfect as they are.  The more open plan a space, the less walls there are for furniture too.  It becomes really annoying.  

Most people do want a kitchen/snug/diner and then another separate lounge for cosiness.   We had the same house, with the side extension, all open plan and I blocked up the original lounge wall.  Best thing we did to have a room that was cosy in the winter.

My best advice is genuinely to plan that side extension now and work towards a grand plan.  

stuart45

Rosa_Damascena said:

And does everything have to be steel? I was surprised to have a supporting small concrete lintel installed over an old doorway that cost all of £200.

It depends on the size of the span. A steel beam is a lot lighter than a concrete lintel for the same load. Some concrete lintels are known as composite which means that they can't take a point load without 3 courses of brickwork above.
Non composite can but are much heavier. Another advantage of steel also is that you can weld a plate to the front to take the face brickwork on a cavity wall.
Years ago really heavy concrete lintels were cast insitu, but the rebar wasn't pre-stressed as can be done in a factory.

stuart45

Doozergirl said:

It's a single storey extension, so there's nothing to support above, but that wall between the kitchen and dining room is incredibly thick for a wall - could it possibly be two extensions?  

Could be they studded out and boarded the walls to form the arches which would increase the thickness quite a lot.

Doozergirl

stuart45 said:

Doozergirl said:

It's a single storey extension, so there's nothing to support above, but that wall between the kitchen and dining room is incredibly thick for a wall - could it possibly be two extensions?  

Could be they studded out and boarded the walls to form the arches which would increase the thickness quite a lot.

Let's hope so!  That'll be very cheap to rip out.  

Arches are back in, by the way! 

stuart45

Interior design has never been my strong point. 

FreeBear

Before you go spending huge amounts of money on knocking down walls, a few observations & suggestions..

The property screams 1920/30s build, cavity wall on the ground floor, solid brick on the upper half. The internal wall between the front & rear reception rooms will be structural all the way up to the roof. Removing it will require a steel and you'll have to leave a stub wall at either side. The ceilings will be lath & plaster (unless they have been ripped out in recent years). Disturbing the ceilings will be extremely messy !

The blocked up fireplace in the bedroom doesn't appear to be ventilated, nor does the pot appear to be capped - This could be a source of damp, so you'll want to get those two points fixed. It shouldn't cost too much (as a chimney sweep about capping the pots).

As mentioned above, solid brick walls on the upper half - These will be cold walls, prone to condensation in the winter months. It looks like a vent or two have been fitted at some point to let cold air in.... Blocking up those vents and fitting internal wall insulation (50-75mm Celotex/Kingspan) will pay dividends in keeping the place warm. While you are at it, take the hung tiles off at the front and get plenty of insulation in there before putting the tiles back on. I'd take a guess that it is an uninsulated stud wall between the two windows. The bit of roof over the bay probably doesn't have any insulation in it either, so more work needed.

The internal doors would have been four or 6 panel pine originally. Hopefully, they have just had some hardboard nailed over the top. Otherwise, an original feature is lost..

warwick2001

I'd just like to thank everyone for their time commenting on this thread, especially Doozergirl, who's advice and guidance is always massively appreciated.

As it turns out, the house has already been sold, so its all moot. But we shall keep looking

Many thanks all