IMPORTANT: Please make sure your posts do not contain any personally identifiable information (both your own and that of others). When uploading images, please take care that you have redacted all personal information including number plates, reference numbers and QR codes (which may reveal vehicle information when scanned).

DCBL Letter- first heard about charge- Town Quay- Southampton- advice

Hello all, 

I should start my saying, I'm writing on behalf of my partner who has received this letter and I'm trying to help get it sorted as partner is understandably very stressed to return from hols and receive this letter for a PCN that was issued supposedly over 17 months ago (but this is the first we hear of it). I've read through the info in the Newbies and have also done an advanced search of forum posts for this same location of the PCN. Lots of info to take in (I've taken a page of notes) so my apologies for the separate thread as I have a touch of information overload and I hoped that people might help me get clear on how to proceed. 

So here are the facts on this one:
  • DCBL (Direct Collection Bailiffs Ltd) letter dated 11th August 2021
  • Titled: Notice of Debt Recovery
  • Date of contravention on the letter is a date in early March 2020
  • Client of DBCL is Parkingeye Limited
  • Location is Town Quay Southampton
  • Vehicle is not a lease/hire or company car
  • DCBL are pursing a parking charge of £170 on behalf of Parking Eye
  • Previous PCNs were not received, letter reports that these were sent to a previous address. Have checked V5c and other DVLA documentation for vehicle and keeper and address has been updated since the time of the supposed parking charge. 
  • Letter states that DCBL used a tracing service to find this address.
  • Partner called DCBL last night (in retrospect and having read the Newbies thread, shouldn't have)- made it clear that didn't know who the driver was. DCBL allege that previous PCNs were sent to previous address and as such appeal not possible.
  • However, was given the Parkeye portal website where we have been able to view the images they have of the car entering and exiting the car park. On the Parkeye portal the option to appeal via their online service still opens and I assume is therefore possible. 
Complications:

  1. With it being so long ago and having only just learnt about this PCN, my partner is unsure about who was driving and why the vehicle was there. This car park is often used by customers of Red Funnel Ferry. I understand that historically at least this land was subject to bylaws which may aid/effect the claim against ParkingEye.
  2. Because my partner did not receive the previous PCNs, we do not know if they were issued within the Freedom of Protection Act 2012 timescale
  3. Around this time my partner actually had their bag stolen which had DVLA doc within it and Covid and lockdown did cause a delay in receiving replacement docs once requested. This might reflect why PCNs (if indeed multiple PCNs were sent- don't trust these private parking companies) were sent to previous address. 
I found a thread for the same location which was immensely useful and I wonder whether that the following points could be used in the process of an appeal (just not sure whether we can use Point 1 though since they claim to have attempted to contact at previous address):

1) This Parking Charge Notice was issued outside of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 timescale - Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 (4 and 5) clearly states that this must be within 14 days. 
2) 
Parking at this site is subject to Associated British Ports Southampton Harbour Byelaws 2003 (“the ABP Byelaws”); this location is therefore not relevant land for the purposes of POFA 2012. 


Please see below for details of the Associated British Ports Southampton Harbour Byelaws 2003. 

A copy of the document can also be found here at this web address:


www.abports.co.uk/media/h10piawn/southampton-harbour-bye-laws-2003....pdf

Page 20 clearly shows the map detailing the location in question

3) No Evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land, I require that they
produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any
'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as
any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of
veto' charge cancellation rights – is key evidence to define what this operator is
authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact
have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent
is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the
agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers
and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land
use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed,
generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A
witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I
suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by
each party to the agreement.

Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption
clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times
set out in the BPA Code of Practice) and basic information such as the land boundary
and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the
various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and
of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be
assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking
terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

Section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice defines the mandatory requirements and I put
this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges,
they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their
appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.
7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries
of the land can be clearly defined
b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement
operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not,
be subject to parking control and enforcement
d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

4). As an additional point, I remember reading somewhere about private parking companies having a maximum charge limit? Is this the case? Is this something that could be used to contest a £170 fine for 20 mins?

My plan is as follows:
1) Appeal with ParkingEye
2) Go through Popla if above fails

What else should I be doing? Many thanks for any advice you can offer.  :)


«1

Comments

  • Le_Kirk
    Le_Kirk Posts: 24,284 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    All the above done in partner's name of course.  Do make sure that DVLA has correct address for V5C and driving licence - two separate notifications - DVLA don't do joined up thinking.
  • D_P_Dance
    D_P_Dance Posts: 11,586 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    ... as partner is understandably very stressed

    No need,it is very likely a scam, about 9 million are isued each year.  PE sogns are pants imo, read this and complain to your MP.

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5972164/parking-eye-signs-oxford-road-reading/p1  
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 43,000 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Almost certainly once ParkingEye farm out a case to debt collectors, they are unlikely to pursue anything on it themselves. 

    I suspect that in relation to Town Quay Southampton, as well as possibly not having landowner authority to pursue through the courts, they may not be too keen to open Pandora's box on byelaws and PoFA 'not relevant land' applying there. 

    Ignore DCB Limited, but in the unlikely event of you receiving anything from DCB Legal or ParkingEye themselves, come back on this thread. You're just going to have to let this just fade away; there is no silver bullet available unless, ironically, PE do take this to court, then a Judge has the power to knock it completely on the head ..... but court claim highly unlikely to happen!
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • lemons21
    lemons21 Posts: 24 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    Thanks everyone for your very helpful advice. 

    I have drafted the following (redacted) email to send to Parking Eye via the Privacy Policy form (so hopefully their DP team) and to the email: enforcement@parkingeye.co.uk

    Any thoughts or anything I should change before we send?

    Good evening, 

    I am writing to you in relation to a parking charge that I have just been notified of. I received a letter from DCBLtd, (who it seems are acting on your behalf), dated [DATE OF LETTER], regarding a PCN which they claim was issued following a parking contravention dated on [DATE]. 

    I did not receive PCN letters from yourselves, Parking Eye, and it is assumed by DCBLtd that these were sent to a previous address. 

    The PCN Number for this case (as listed on the letter) is:  [PCN No.]


    As such, firstly, I am writing to send a Data Rectification Notice. I (the keeper of the vehicle) request that you erase the keeper's old data and replace it with the following address for service: [UPDATED ADDRESS]

    [Attached utility bill/VC5 to serve as identification]

    Secondly, I am hereby sending a Subject Access Request (Data Protection Act 2018 / General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR)).


    Name: Joe Bloggs

    Current address: The house, Some Street, Inacity, PoZK0D

    Previous address: Another house, Somewhere else, ...


    Please supply the data about me that I am entitled to under data protection law relating to myself. This includes:
    - All photos taken
    - All letters/emails sent and received, including original PCNs and any appeal correspondence earlier
    - A full copy of the PCN
    - A PDT machine record from [date in question] of payments made 
    - A list of all PCNs outstanding against myself and/or this VRN (I politely remind you that any claim must be for all PCNs, not several separate claims).


    Thirdly, I am emailing so that we might resolve this dispute. This is the first letter that I have received about this parking charge, and as such I was not aware of it before this time. Given that the letter I have received dates the alleged contravention at over 17 months ago, I would like to discuss the details of this PCN with you with the view to resolving the parking charge dispute



  • lemons21
    lemons21 Posts: 24 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    Obviously, once we have the info from SAR, we'll hopefully know a bit more. Really tricky given it was 17 months ago and this is the first we have heard about it. 

    On a separate note, following research and with the details we currently have about the PCN (from Parking Eye portal), we have worked out that the driver had entered Town Quay Car Park in order to use Red Funnel's drop off zone, which you are permitted to use for 15 mins. 
    I am unclear on whether the compulsory five-minute minimum “grace” period – as set by the British Parking Association – is valid in case of users entering to use the 15 minute drop off zone. However, the PCN states that the vehicle was there for 21 minutes. Should the 5 minute minimum grace period be applicable here, this case is a measly 1 minute outside of their tolerance!! :s

    We'll obviously be sending a complaint to Red Funnel, also the landowner, Associated British Ports (ABP), and local MP. To add fuel to the latter, I have found multiple further reports and complaints about this car park and the drop off area online, including other users who have gone to the local Newspapers. Maybe the local newspaper is something to consider? 

    I have taken multiple screenshots of the signage in this car park and the signage in the Red Funnel waiting area (which in particular leaves a lot to be desired). With a bit of help from further research online regarding bylaws and correspondence posted on previous similar cases, I have edited the following which I might look at editing further and using in any discussion of the dispute, dependant on SAR info being released. 

    Any thoughts?
    The signage at the location is not sufficient to give notice to the driver of the terms and conditions of the car park. As it stands, there are 35 different car parking conditions within Town Quay car park. 

    The signage at the location is not sufficient to give notice to the driver of the terms and conditions of the car park. It is not made clear that the pickup / drop-off points outside the Red Jet terminal are subject to parking charges nor is it made clear what the terms and conditions of use are. There are few signs to inform the driver that there is a time limit on waiting in the bay. The signs that do exist are placed too high up and are angled towards the road not the waiting bay itself, and thus cannot be seen from a car waiting inside the bays, as shown in the attached IMAGE 1. These signs make no mention of the terms and conditions of the car park nor the consequences of any breach of these conditions. The signs say that there is a 15 minute time limit on waiting and if longer is required then “tariffs are applicable after this time” with no mention of what they are or where to find them. 

    The terms and conditions of the car park are not found anywhere near the waiting bays. To find the conditions the driver would be required to leave the waiting bays to drive around the corner and down the road to where the main carpark is located and read them from there. As shown in attached figure 2. The terms and conditions of the car park also make no reference to the waiting bays, only the two types of parking ‘zones’ ParkingEye offers, as shown in IMAGE 2. 

    The signage also fails to inform drivers using the waiting bays that this car park uses automatic number plate recognition (ANPR). The BPA Code of Practice (Section 21.3) states that there must be signs to inform drivers that you are using this technology.  As seen on picture 1 there is no written notice of this, only a small camera icon at the bottom of the sign, which could have multiple meanings such as there being CCTV at the carpark for instance. I also question the reliability of the system, particularly given that this contravention appears mysteriously to be 1 minute outside of the compulsory five minute grace period as set by the British Parking Association. I require that ParkingEye present records to the dates and times of when the cameras at this carpark were checked, adjusted, calibrated and synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images, as is required by ParkingEye under the BPA Code of Practice Section 21.

    Furthermore Southampton Town Quay carpark had no keeper liability due to byelaws prevailing, specifically parking at this location is subject to the statutory control of the ABP Port of Southampton Byelaws (39). Consequently, ParkingEye has no statutory right to claim unpaid parking charges from me in my capacity as the vehicle's keeper. 

  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 43,000 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    You're overthinking this and, if ParkingEye realise you're doing so, they might just have another go at it themselves. 

    Just send them a data rectification notice - without the niceties of any preamble other than your PCN and VRM references - then ignore it. 
    Thirdly, I am emailing so that we might resolve this dispute. This is the first letter that I have received about this parking charge, and as such I was not aware of it before this time. Given that the letter I have received dates the alleged contravention at over 17 months ago, I would like to discuss the details of this PCN with you with the view to resolving the parking charge dispute. 
    Nooo! They won't discuss it!  Don't reawaken any possible interest on their part!  PE's 'resolution' will only be achieved by a 'cheque in the post' - that's about the sum of it. The only place this can be resolved is in court, and as things stand - given the involvement of DCB Limited - to our knowledge, this won't happen. 

    By all means rattle the landowner's cage, and involve your MP, but the most positive thing you could do right now is to complete the MHCLG consultation which will shape how private parking companies are allowed to operate in future. Speak now or forever hold your peace - there's less than 4 hours to respond. Please help in giving this a final push over the line. Every little helps!

    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Castle
    Castle Posts: 4,604 Forumite
    Tenth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    lemons21 said:
    Obviously, once we have the info from SAR, we'll hopefully know a bit more. Really tricky given it was 17 months ago and this is the first we have heard about it. 

    On a separate note, following research and with the details we currently have about the PCN (from Parking Eye portal), we have worked out that the driver had entered Town Quay Car Park in order to use Red Funnel's drop off zone, which you are permitted to use for 15 mins. 
    I am unclear on whether the compulsory five-minute minimum “grace” period – as set by the British Parking Association – is valid in case of users entering to use the 15 minute drop off zone. However, the PCN states that the vehicle was there for 21 minutes. Should the 5 minute minimum grace period be applicable here, this case is a measly 1 minute outside of their tolerance!! :s


    The 5 minutes only applies if the driver decides not to enter into a contract; so if they use the 15 minutes drop off zone there's a 10 minutes BPA grace period, (13.3), to leave at the end of the 15 minutes. (Of course "in the real world" the driver will also need time to read all of the signs when they first enter the drop off zone).
  • lemons21
    lemons21 Posts: 24 Forumite
    10 Posts Name Dropper
    Umkomaas said:
    You're overthinking this and, if ParkingEye realise you're doing so, they might just have another go at it themselves. 

    Just send them a data rectification notice - without the niceties of any preamble other than your PCN and VRM references - then ignore it. 
    Thirdly, I am emailing so that we might resolve this dispute. This is the first letter that I have received about this parking charge, and as such I was not aware of it before this time. Given that the letter I have received dates the alleged contravention at over 17 months ago, I would like to discuss the details of this PCN with you with the view to resolving the parking charge dispute. 
    Nooo! They won't discuss it!  Don't reawaken any possible interest on their part!  PE's 'resolution' will only be achieved by a 'cheque in the post' - that's about the sum of it. The only place this can be resolved is in court, and as things stand - given the involvement of DCB Limited - to our knowledge, this won't happen. 

    By all means rattle the landowner's cage, and involve your MP, but the most positive thing you could do right now is to complete the MHCLG consultation which will shape how private parking companies are allowed to operate in future. Speak now or forever hold your peace - there's less than 4 hours to respond. Please help in giving this a final push over the line. Every little helps!


    Aside from the data rectification notice, do you think I should send the SAR also? I figured, the more info I have the better, just in case?

    Thanks- I have just submitted my response to the MHCLG consultation online.
  • Redx
    Redx Posts: 38,084 Forumite
    Eighth Anniversary 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Yes , SAR as well as the data rectification notice , but not discussing the case , heed what Umkomaas says
Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 350.2K Banking & Borrowing
  • 252.8K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 453.2K Spending & Discounts
  • 243.2K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 597.6K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 176.5K Life & Family
  • 256.1K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16.1K Discuss & Feedback
  • 37.6K Read-Only Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.