Condensate pipe and leaks?

Kai_63

Bit of a specific question. I've had a new boiler fitted in a first floor flat kitchen. The safety discharge pipe could be fitted outside but the plumber would need access to it any time there's a problem, plus there's a chance of freezing in winter.

Then other option is an interior condensate pipe, with the pressure release valve connected to a tundish! 

But what happens if the boiler fails and there is a leak into the downstairs flat? Is this likely to be covered by insurers or would they usually prefer an exterior safety discharge pipe so the water could run outside? Trying to speak to insurers but posting here too.

jefaz07

The safety discharge won’t freeze, or shouldn’t. There’s nothing in it. It’s a safety device to get rid of excess pressure. 

Unless you’re referring to the condensate pipe as being a safety discharge? 

What do you mean, boiler fails? Why would It leak water into downstairs flat? 

Are you concerned about water from the pressure relief (condensate) spilling over the tundish and into downstairs? 

TELLIT01

jefaz07 said:

The safety discharge won’t freeze, or shouldn’t. There’s nothing in it. It’s a safety device to get rid of excess pressure. 

What do you mean, boiler fails? Why would It leak water into downstairs flat? 

Are you concerned about water from the pressure relief spilling over the tundish and to downstairs? 

Sorry but claiming the discharge pipe won't freeze simply isn't true, as I know from personal experience.  It is also an extremely common cause of boilers stopping working in the winter months.  The condense pipe for my boiler froze in the first winter.  It ran outside but was lagged by the installers.  If the pipe was run at a steep angle it would reduce the risk but most don't.

RedbullRJ

I think you are confusing two different things:

Condensate pipe: Takes condensate away from boiler. This happens regularly and would be a plastic pipe.  This should be fitted internally if at all possible, to avoid freezing in cold weather when you need your boiler most. It must be fitted to manufacture's requirements shown in the installation manual. (I have seen many that aren't) It is no more likely to cause a flood in you home than any other plumbing, if your installer is competent. If installed externally, it is very important it is installed correctly to prevent freezing, especially if access is difficult, or flooding, if fitted to a rain water down pipe (from a gutter etc.). It could also have a condensate pump fitted, to help solve problematic installations, but this is something else to go wrong.

PRV Discharge pipe:  This is a safety discharge, that will release potentially very hot water from the system if it becomes over pressurised, so normally nothing will come out of it. (Google "PRV mushroom") Pipe will be copper and it is almost always discharged externally and must be in a safe location.  Internal termination into drainage system would be unusual and have to comply with Manufacture's Instructions and building regs.

Google "Worcester Greenstar 12-24 i System manual" to have a look at a manual with some clear pictures of what is required, though if your boiler has already been fitted these jobs should already have been done to the requirements of the instructions that came with it.

Any more question, please ask.

jefaz07

TELLIT01 said:

jefaz07 said:

The safety discharge won’t freeze, or shouldn’t. There’s nothing in it. It’s a safety device to get rid of excess pressure. 

What do you mean, boiler fails? Why would It leak water into downstairs flat? 

Are you concerned about water from the pressure relief spilling over the tundish and to downstairs? 

Sorry but claiming the discharge pipe won't freeze simply isn't true, as I know from personal experience.  It is also an extremely common cause of boilers stopping working in the winter months.  The condense pipe for my boiler froze in the first winter.  It ran outside but was lagged by the installers.  If the pipe was run at a steep angle it would reduce the risk but most don't.

You obviously haven’t understood what I meant. I did edit the post after….The terminology the OP has used is confusing. That’s why I have asked for clarification…..using this line;

Unless you’re referring to the condensate pipe as being a safety discharge? 

I am aware of the condensate issues, I have fitted 100’s 
I’ll use 1”1/2 outside always. I have had no call backs from the ones I’ve installed  and I wouldn’t be put off installing outside. 

jefaz07

RedbullRJ said:

I think you are confusing two different things:

Condensate pipe: Takes condensate away from boiler. This happens regularly and would be a plastic pipe.  This should be fitted internally if at all possible, to avoid freezing in cold weather when you need your boiler most. It must be fitted to manufacture's requirements shown in the installation manual. (I have seen many that aren't) It is no more likely to cause a flood in you home than any other plumbing, if your installer is competent. If installed externally, it is very important it is installed correctly to prevent freezing, especially if access is difficult, or flooding, if fitted to a rain water down pipe (from a gutter etc.). It could also have a condensate pump fitted, to help solve problematic installations, but this is something else to go wrong.

PRV Discharge pipe:  This is a safety discharge, that will release potentially very hot water from the system if it becomes over pressurised, so normally nothing will come out of it. (Google "PRV mushroom") Pipe will be copper and it is almost always discharged externally and must be in a safe location.  Internal termination into drainage system would be unusual and have to comply with Manufacture's Instructions and building regs.

Google "Worcester Greenstar 12-24 i System manual" to have a look at a manual with some clear pictures of what is required, though if your boiler has already been fitted these jobs should already have been done to the requirements of the instructions that came with it.

Any more question, please ask.

You can have a combined PRV and condensate internal termination. Via an approved HiFlow tundish! It’s my go to now if possible and looks tidy. 

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi Kai.

As said above, and as I suspect you understand, these are two different pipes with two different purposes.

The plastic condensate pipe will be in 'constant' use, and must be protected against freezing. Therefore the ideal way to drain this is internally. Cool if the guy can do this.

The safety discharge pipe is in copper, and only comes in to play when there's a fault causing excess pressure - this pipe is used to safely release the excess (and often hot) system water. This pipe should ideally, therefore, be aimed outside!

It's also important to be able to monitor whether the SDP is letting by, and this would be easy to spot by looking at the pipe end on the outside wall. Plumbe internally, tho', another method needs to be provided, and that - I understand - is the purpose of the 'tundish'. If there's water escaping, you'll see it visible there.

As long as it's within regs to have the SDP plumbed in to an internal drain - and I can't see why it isn't, but it's worth checking - then there is no reason to be concerned. Both pipes should be able to drain away safely with no risk of causing a leak.

If a leak were to happen (it won't...), then that's what insurance is for   If the plumber messes up, he'd be liable.

So, as long as regs allow it, do not worry.

TELLIT01

jefaz07 said:

TELLIT01 said:

jefaz07 said:

The safety discharge won’t freeze, or shouldn’t. There’s nothing in it. It’s a safety device to get rid of excess pressure. 

What do you mean, boiler fails? Why would It leak water into downstairs flat? 

Are you concerned about water from the pressure relief spilling over the tundish and to downstairs? 

Sorry but claiming the discharge pipe won't freeze simply isn't true, as I know from personal experience.  It is also an extremely common cause of boilers stopping working in the winter months.  The condense pipe for my boiler froze in the first winter.  It ran outside but was lagged by the installers.  If the pipe was run at a steep angle it would reduce the risk but most don't.

You obviously haven’t understood what I meant. I did edit the post after….The terminology the OP has used is confusing. That’s why I have asked for clarification…..using this line;

Unless you’re referring to the condensate pipe as being a safety discharge? 

I am aware of the condensate issues, I have fitted 100’s 
I’ll use 1”1/2 outside always. I have had no call backs from the ones I’ve installed  and I wouldn’t be put off installing outside. 

I responded to a question about the condense pipe freezing.  If you change the information after the event i.e. after my comment, it doesn't mean I didn't understand what was being said at that time.

jefaz07

TELLIT01 said:

jefaz07 said:

TELLIT01 said:

jefaz07 said:

The safety discharge won’t freeze, or shouldn’t. There’s nothing in it. It’s a safety device to get rid of excess pressure. 

What do you mean, boiler fails? Why would It leak water into downstairs flat? 

Are you concerned about water from the pressure relief spilling over the tundish and to downstairs? 

Sorry but claiming the discharge pipe won't freeze simply isn't true, as I know from personal experience.  It is also an extremely common cause of boilers stopping working in the winter months.  The condense pipe for my boiler froze in the first winter.  It ran outside but was lagged by the installers.  If the pipe was run at a steep angle it would reduce the risk but most don't.

You obviously haven’t understood what I meant. I did edit the post after….The terminology the OP has used is confusing. That’s why I have asked for clarification…..using this line;

Unless you’re referring to the condensate pipe as being a safety discharge? 

I am aware of the condensate issues, I have fitted 100’s 
I’ll use 1”1/2 outside always. I have had no call backs from the ones I’ve installed  and I wouldn’t be put off installing outside. 

I responded to a question about the condense pipe freezing.  If you change the information after the event i.e. after my comment, it doesn't mean I didn't understand what was being said at that time.

You responded saying that I was wrong and the discharge pipe will freeze. I wasn’t referring to the condensate pipe. I was referring to the PRV so no, you didn’t understand what I was saying!
Read the first line of my first comment…
Note I said ‘safety discharge’ and then stipulated what it’s for. You assumed I meant condensate, therefore misunderstood 

Kai_63

Thank you all. Apologies about the wrong terminology. I think that yes, what's being suggested is a combined PRV and condensate internal termination.

Sounds like an interior fitting will be fine and I feel reassured.

On the point of the external pipe freezing, I understand that is quite likely to happen and does happen quite a lot.

Jeepers_Creepers

This is interesting: https://hotun.co.uk/benefits-of-hotun/prv-discharge-pipe-routing-issues-hotun-the-simple-solution/

It seems clear that internal connection is fine in cases like yours where to gain access to the outside could be a hassle.

Yes, a tundish provides a visual clue as to whether it's 'letting by'.

The interesting bit is that you need a special tundish, one that has a valve to block smells coming out of your waste or drain and seeping out via the tundish gap!

But, to answer your Q - internal plumbing is all good.