Would you pull out of purchase? Vendors lied and survey issues

MsACam

Hi,
So cutting to the chase - 

I’m 9 weeks into buying 4 bed house in London which has had a loft conversion done 3.5 years ago by prior owners (ie not the vendors). The vendors have provided the building regulation completion certificate but nothing else. I’m chain free (rental) and I intend it to be home for 7 years or so.

The loft BR certificate was issued by approved person (not local council), company called Complete Building Control Ltd and if you Google them/ check Trust Pilot etc reviews then their c. 2.5 stars (average of either 5 or the minimum 1; none in between) don’t fill you with confidence (many state the works signed off shouldn’t have been/ they’re in cahoots with the builders/they were reported to the regulators). But they’re still in business.  There is no other paperwork that’s been shared and vendors say that’s all that’s needed (even though certificate states “we’re signing of on initial notice dated x” so we can’t really know what’s been signed off without the initial notice).    

The surveyor (full building survey) has a major concern that the roof near velux windows is sagging which suggests that insufficient supports were put in place. But he’s also concerned about lack of  documentation - no initial notice, no installation certificates, no invoices/ contract. The approved person said they had docs on file but it’s have to be vendors who ask (so we have asked vendors to ask; why they couldn’t be bothered to ask without us prodding them I don’t know). Surveyor thinks the building regs shouldn’t have been signed off - no roof should be sagging after 3 years. 

The company that did the works on the loft is in liquidation (as are 5 other companies who had the same director...). 

We’re paying over the asking price - which is vast majority of £1million (London prices for you), and we were 1 of 3 sealed bids (according to the EA who was “kind” enough to tell me he wouldn’t have gone with me, I wasn’t the highest bid and I’m asking for too much paperwork and the vendors will just walk away). So we don’t have confidence the loft isn’t just a pit of problems that are not evident without taking the plastering down etc or erecting scaffold (which is what a roofer told us). I’m not sure about the vendors’ appetite for massive price chip (which we’d need to be sure we can cover the potential cost of remedial works). 

We walked away from 2 other houses for which we won sealed bids to proceed with this one - it felt more us in terms of layout and “felt right”... at the time. We were so excited - they said it was chain free and moving into rental and they couldn’t wait to crack on. 

*EDIT* confirmed in writing today 9 weeks down the line they’re not willing to rent, only prepared to buy the 1 house they're after (which is in a chain) and actually don’t need to sell this house as they can borrow from friends so can buy first and sell later. (!!!) The chain above collapsed so they’re effectively extending the deadline indefinitely. *EDIT*

There were other issues with survey but not huge - bit of damp detected; chimney repointing/ guttering fixing; getting wood burner serviced as no records available (it is BR approved for the installation but no maintenance). 

We were looking for a year and there’s hardly any (2 in past month) comparable properties coming onto market. What would you do? The vendors could try their luck with a different (less diligent) buyer who will just accept their limited docs.

Any advice or similar experiences? Recommendations? 

verytired11

Can you get a quote for what would need to be done and how much it would cost to put right the lack of support on the roof? Sounds like you need some technical detailed structural advice.

MsACam

I got a quote - about £10k but that would only fix what we can see. What concerns me is a cowboy job that carries other issues (I know it’s often case with houses - you can’t know all things that might go wrong; but if you’re aware that someone dodgy did the works, is it wise to assume that this £10k fix would resolve all...)

verytired11

MsACam said:

I got a quote - about £10k but that would only fix what we can see. What concerns me is a cowboy job that carries other issues (I know it’s often case with houses - you can’t know all things that might go wrong; but if you’re aware that someone dodgy did the works, is it wise to assume that this £10k fix would resolve all...)

I am sure someone on here can advise better, but I don't think lofts are generally high risk alterations.  You could get a structural engineer to do a full report if you want real peace of mind?

verytired11

Also why are the vendors selling so soon after buying? I would want to drill down into that a bit more.  

MsACam

They found a house in the country and lockdown made them reconsider their life (left (we know this is factually true for reasons I won’t go into). Plus market gone haha and they’re making best part of £200k in the 3.5 years. They did put on a downstairs extension (kitchen) in that time which is stunning and was reason we loved this property (for which they have planning permissions and basic legal but no warranties etc of any sort...). 

But yes also makes me wonder they realised there’s an issue with house that they don’t want to deal with so thought rise the seller friendly market and wash their hands off it. It’s over valued by about £30k but I’m prepared to suck that up as it’s almost 6 figures anyway and I feel my life is on pause hunting for houses (also it’s impacting my work as it’s so time consuming). 

verytired11

It sounds like the previous owners sold immediately after doing the loft. Maybe they deliberately did it on the cheap to get more money on the sale, or maybe it was so awful they couldn't live with it.  As a general rule property in London is a good investment so if it's a nice house in a good location the loft probably won't be a big issue in selling if you sort out the velux problems.

Jeepers_Creepers

MsACam said:

Hi,
So the below has been shorted considerably to cut to the chase  
 
The vendors have provided the building regulation completion certificate but nothing else.

The loft BR certificate was issued by a company called Complete Building Control Ltd Google/Trust Pilot reviews  them as c. 2.5 stars (average of either 5 or the minimum 1; none in between) (Good chance the '5's are from folk who are just chuffed their extnesion has been passed and hasn't fallen down. The '1's will be from folk who are a bit more wise and know summat was lacking in either the building or the surveying.)

Many state the works signed off shouldn’t have been/ they’re in cahoots with the builders/ they were reported to the regulators. It includes lofts signed off but not done properly which had major structural issues.

My surveyor (full building survey) has a major concern that the velux windows in the loft are prolapsing which suggests that insufficient supports were put in place.

Surveyor thinks the building regs shouldn’t have been signed off - no velux windows should be collapsing after 3 years. 

The company that did the works is in liquidation (as are 5 other companies who had the same director...). 

Soooo, the work was pretty definitely carried out by a bona-fide 'dodgy builder' who is in liquidation - along with 'his' 5 other companies?

And the BR oversight was carried out by what is very likely/almost certainly a bona-fide dodgy surveyor, who has a number of 1-star reviews with a common theme of "...in cahoots with...", "...reported to the regulators...", "...shouldn't have been signed off..." and "...had major structural issues."

And, "no Velux should be collapsing after just three years." 

I'd like you to mull that last one over in your mind for a bit. To build a roof structure which is seemingly incapable of supporting itself is actually quite an achievement. If you gave me a bunch of 4x2s and some nails, I could knock up a frame I'd be happy to jump on all day long. To build something that is inherently weak - as this would appear to be - honestly takes some doing. Timber structures are hugely forgiving - you can climb into most lofts and knock out/saw through half the rafters and they'll still stand. This one is sagging after 3 years! Lawdie.

I know you are keen to get things over with and move in to a dream place, but this is surely a mistake? Forget £10k to sort out the weakened Velux surrounds - think of the rest of the roof which is likely to be equally weak. Do you have a further 30, 40k in your pocket? Even if you do, would you be happy to have been taken for such a mug?

Turn the tables - armed with your info (dodgy builder, dodgy surveyor, collapsing Velux surrounds, a minimum £10k bill), negotiate a 40-50k discount on the price, or walk. Inform the EA handling this that they now have a duty to inform future buyers of these issues, certainly if asked; they are now aware of them. And, if they tell you to foff, go on to their lovely Facebook page and tell the world about this property.

The market looks as tho' it's cooling. I think, in London, it's actually cooled? Keep looking - there is always a better place there for the asking, ime.

davilown

Just out of interest, what warranties are you expecting with an extension? All you have to have is BR and PP, which you do.

MsACam

Well any proof of electrical installations (which are standard), guarantee of workmanship (you get these with window installations so why you wouldn’t for a roof?) and the initial notice referred to in the completion certificate as we don’t know what works the certificate actually relates to. 

Grenfell and others like it also had all the relevant certificates - not worth paper they’re written on if the person who issued them was not diligent /competent... There’s the paper, and there’s the facts on the ground.

StandingInTheSun

Walk away or stick to your guns and have a further inspection done, asking for the money off. They will run into the same issues with other buyers. 

You're a FTB as well and about to pay circa £1 million (I won't ask how that's even possible!) - you want to get this right.