Rejecting faulty vehicle

beavere38

Jumblebumble said:

beavere38 said:

I bought a vehicle less than 2 weeks ago from a used car dealer and it has 2 dangerous faults. It was a lot of money, nearly £20k so I am very keen to get my money back. It is a long story but these are the basics:

I contacted the dealer in person and advised I was rejecting it. I left him this in writing and also emailed him the same letter. The letter template I used came from the which website. He has said by reply in an email that he will give a refund "less any damage or over mileage allowance which we allow which is written on the front website as shown to you today".

The sale invoice shows the mileage at 141,000 exactly and the odometer is showing nearer 141,800 now but I have not done 800 miles, more like 200 maximum. The 141,000 was rounded down but I cannot prove that.

His website mentions mileage but it does not make sense and it also is in reference to purchases made without seeing the car in person (due to covid). It also states these terms expire in April 2021 so they are no longer valid. It may be reasonable for me to swallow a slight loss but having used the vehicle for less than a week before parking it up as unroadworthy I do not feel I should have to take anything more than a tiny loss.

What reduction should I accept? I believe he has committed an offence under section 75 of the RTA by selling an unsafe vehicle but I do not want to antagonise him and risk him refusing to refund me at all so I do not want to mention that to him at this stage.

If I accept a part refund does this prevent me from taking legal action afterwards for a further amount which I feel I am due?

Has he actually said how much deduction he is going to make ?
You have in my view very little  chance of proving that the caliper or exhaust were leaking before sale on a 140K mile car

I listened to my recording, I asked "How much are you going to charge me for mileage?" he replied "I don't know ...." (inaudible due to background noise) but I think he asked me how much I had driven it based on my next response. It did not get much further than that so basically I do not know what he is intending to charge.

I don't understand their terms on their website: "Please be aware we will charge a rental fee for each day the vehicle has been out with the mileage driven over a 30 mile radius and used from the date of our sales invoiced mileage within that 14 day period, fees subject to which model vehicle has been purchased, so please enquire before purchase of our charges and stipulations if you’re not sure what this means" - although these terms only apply to vehicles purchased unseen and also these terms expired April 2021.

Why do you say I would I have very little chance of proving the leaks were there before sale on a 140k mile car? I've never known a caliper to leak and I've had plenty of high milers in my time. I think you could say that by chance one fault could have occurred in the couple of days after me buying the car but two faults? Improbable.

beavere38

neilmcl said:

beavere38 said:

OK but what if he refuses? Do I accept his offer then go to court for the rest or refuse his offer and go to court for the full amount?

That's entirely up to you but you are entitled to go down the latter route.

Thanks for all your replies. If he offers me say £1,000 less as a refund and I accept it can I still pursue him through court or am I accepting the refund in full settlement as it were? I would rather not go to court for the whole amount, unscrupulous limited companies can go bust etc to get out of paying debts

born_again

So a 5 year old car with over 140K mileage @ nearly £20K...
What is it?

what does MOT history show?

Was the car delivered to you or did you pick it up from the showroom?

Grumpy_chap

born_again said:

So a 5 year old car with over 140K mileage @ nearly £20K...
What is it?

With those criteria, it will be expensive to run.

MalMonroe

beavere38 said:

I bought a vehicle less than 2 weeks ago from a used car dealer and it has 2 dangerous faults. It was a lot of money, nearly £20k so I am very keen to get my money back. It is a long story but these are the basics:

I contacted the dealer in person and advised I was rejecting it. I left him this in writing and also emailed him the same letter. The letter template I used came from the which website. He has said by reply in an email that he will give a refund "less any damage or over mileage allowance which we allow which is written on the front website as shown to you today".

The sale invoice shows the mileage at 141,000 exactly and the odometer is showing nearer 141,800 now but I have not done 800 miles, more like 200 maximum. The 141,000 was rounded down but I cannot prove that.

His website mentions mileage but it does not make sense and it also is in reference to purchases made without seeing the car in person (due to covid). It also states these terms expire in April 2021 so they are no longer valid. It may be reasonable for me to swallow a slight loss but having used the vehicle for less than a week before parking it up as unroadworthy I do not feel I should have to take anything more than a tiny loss.

What reduction should I accept? I believe he has committed an offence under section 75 of the RTA by selling an unsafe vehicle but I do not want to antagonise him and risk him refusing to refund me at all so I do not want to mention that to him at this stage.

If I accept a part refund does this prevent me from taking legal action afterwards for a further amount which I feel I am due?

Hi, you are entitled to a full refund. Look at the information in this link -

https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/getting-help-and-advice/consumer-rights/consumer-rights-what-you-need-to-know

And also here - https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl

An item has to be (1) fit for purpose (2) as described and (3) of satisfactory quality. Your new vehicle is none of those things.

You have complained within the time limit and the link from Which, above, tells you how to proceed. 

Don't let this dealer get away with your money! Please. Section 75, btw, is not an act. It's a way of claiming back full charges when you have paid by credit card. Which you didn't. But in any case, do not accept ANY reduction! You are within your rights to claim a full refund.

He has sold you a load of rubbish and the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (of which he must be perfectly well aware) is your friend here. Also, that dealer may be surprised to learn that consumers have more rights, not fewer, when they buy things at a distance. He's made up his own rules, which do not apply. Don't be afraid of antagonising him! He has taken your money under false pretences. It happened to me once and I fought to get my money back, which I did. With added compensation for the car dealer's delaying tactics and devious practices.

beavere38

MalMonroe said:

beavere38 said:

I bought a vehicle less than 2 weeks ago from a used car dealer and it has 2 dangerous faults. It was a lot of money, nearly £20k so I am very keen to get my money back. It is a long story but these are the basics:

I contacted the dealer in person and advised I was rejecting it. I left him this in writing and also emailed him the same letter. The letter template I used came from the which website. He has said by reply in an email that he will give a refund "less any damage or over mileage allowance which we allow which is written on the front website as shown to you today".

The sale invoice shows the mileage at 141,000 exactly and the odometer is showing nearer 141,800 now but I have not done 800 miles, more like 200 maximum. The 141,000 was rounded down but I cannot prove that.

His website mentions mileage but it does not make sense and it also is in reference to purchases made without seeing the car in person (due to covid). It also states these terms expire in April 2021 so they are no longer valid. It may be reasonable for me to swallow a slight loss but having used the vehicle for less than a week before parking it up as unroadworthy I do not feel I should have to take anything more than a tiny loss.

What reduction should I accept? I believe he has committed an offence under section 75 of the RTA by selling an unsafe vehicle but I do not want to antagonise him and risk him refusing to refund me at all so I do not want to mention that to him at this stage.

If I accept a part refund does this prevent me from taking legal action afterwards for a further amount which I feel I am due?

Hi, you are entitled to a full refund. Look at the information in this link -

https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/getting-help-and-advice/consumer-rights/consumer-rights-what-you-need-to-know

And also here - https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act-aKJYx8n5KiSl

An item has to be (1) fit for purpose (2) as described and (3) of satisfactory quality. Your new vehicle is none of those things.

You have complained within the time limit and the link from Which, above, tells you how to proceed. 

Don't let this dealer get away with your money! Please. Section 75, btw, is not an act. It's a way of claiming back full charges when you have paid by credit card. Which you didn't. But in any case, do not accept ANY reduction! You are within your rights to claim a full refund.

He has sold you a load of rubbish and the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (of which he must be perfectly well aware) is your friend here. Also, that dealer may be surprised to learn that consumers have more rights, not fewer, when they buy things at a distance. He's made up his own rules, which do not apply. Don't be afraid of antagonising him! He has taken your money under false pretences. It happened to me once and I fought to get my money back, which I did. With added compensation for the car dealer's delaying tactics and devious practices.

You are absolutely correct thank you. I have just read this 60 page guide I found: BEIS_Car_Traders - reduced.pdf (businesscompanion.info) written by Trading Standards (and others). I was correct about section 75 of the Road Traffic Act though, it is an offense to sell a vehicle that is unroadworthy. That might not help me directly as I did not use finance but the trader has committed a criminal offence under that act if he has sold an unroadworthy vehicle. I have emailed the trader explaining that I am due a full refund and will see what he says.

macman

What are the '2 dangerous faults', and how was the vehicle described? What questions did you ask about it's mechanical condition?
A dealer who is trading in cars at £20K, yet doesn't have a facility to accept cards should have been a red warning sign here. Just 1p on your credit card would have given you full S75 cover for the entire value of the transaction.

beavere38

macman said:

What are the '2 dangerous faults', and how was the vehicle described? What questions did you ask about it's mechanical condition?
A dealer who is trading in cars at £20K, yet doesn't have a facility to accept cards should have been a red warning sign here. Just 1p on your credit card would have given you full S75 cover for the entire value of the transaction.

The faults were a badly leaking brake caliper and an exhaust leak from the rear of the engine causing exhaust fumes to enter the cabin. I was told it was in very good condition, full service history etc. 

Ectophile

My suggestion would be to find a reputable local garage and have them fix the problems.

You have all sorts of legal rights against the seller, but your odds of successfully enforcing them are pretty slim.  Having got you to pay the money by a method that can't be reversed, they aren't going to want to give you back your £20k.  If it looks like you might win in court, they can wind up the company, and open a new one under a slightly different name.  So you get added to the list of creditors, who might possibly get back a few pence for every pound they are owed.

If you want to reject the car, you have to hand it back to the dealer.  That leaves you even worse off - no car and no money.

The two faults should be fixable by any competent mechanic.  So get it fixed, and avoid buying from dodgy car dealers in future.

macman

On a £20k car I'd expect a new or near-new MOT-did it not have that? If it did, how did it pass the MOT with those faults present?
'FSH' is utterly meaningless in terms of the vehicle's condition-it could have been serviced on schedule and still have major faults unattended to. 'VGC' is equally vague: you need to specifically ask if the vendor is aware of any mechanical faults. 
Subject to being roadworthy, the vendor does not have to voluntarily disclose anything.