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Building regs needed, what does this actually mean IRT removing supporting structure

greensalad
Posts: 2,530 Forumite


Sorry for my not-knowing, new to home ownership.
We have just had the survey back for our property and probably the biggest issue is to do with lack of building regs.
The property has a conservatory off the back of the kitchen, and originally there were french doors in the back of the house leading into this conservatory area. Our current vendors decided to remove them to open up the kitchen.
We have planned to remove the conservatory in the coming years, hopefully 1-2 years, we need to save up enough for a proper extension. The conservatory actually looks in quite good repair but we don't know when it was built, certainly not in our current vendor's time, and it's only a single skin dwarf wall with plastic roof so not great.
However our surveyor has pointed out that removal of the french doors was not done properly as they were simply removed and no consideration was given to their functioning support for the wall above.
He has said that retrospective building regs will be needed, and they will be invasive (presumably they need to chip away the plaster to see what the situation is above the opening). He did say however it's shown no signs of sagging.
Considering we are hoping to convert the opening properly in a few years, I was wondering if there's anything to be done to mitigate? I was considering whether we just re-instate the doors, which is a shame as it means we won't be able to have a dining room table there (currently they use the conservatory as a dining room and have the table half way through the opening). Which means there is no dining room in the house.
We have just had the survey back for our property and probably the biggest issue is to do with lack of building regs.
The property has a conservatory off the back of the kitchen, and originally there were french doors in the back of the house leading into this conservatory area. Our current vendors decided to remove them to open up the kitchen.
We have planned to remove the conservatory in the coming years, hopefully 1-2 years, we need to save up enough for a proper extension. The conservatory actually looks in quite good repair but we don't know when it was built, certainly not in our current vendor's time, and it's only a single skin dwarf wall with plastic roof so not great.
However our surveyor has pointed out that removal of the french doors was not done properly as they were simply removed and no consideration was given to their functioning support for the wall above.
He has said that retrospective building regs will be needed, and they will be invasive (presumably they need to chip away the plaster to see what the situation is above the opening). He did say however it's shown no signs of sagging.
Considering we are hoping to convert the opening properly in a few years, I was wondering if there's anything to be done to mitigate? I was considering whether we just re-instate the doors, which is a shame as it means we won't be able to have a dining room table there (currently they use the conservatory as a dining room and have the table half way through the opening). Which means there is no dining room in the house.
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greensalad said:
However our surveyor has pointed out that removal of the french doors was not done properly as they were simply removed and no consideration was given to their functioning support for the wall above.
He has said that retrospective building regs will be needed, and they will be invasive (presumably they need to chip away the plaster to see what the situation is above the opening). He did say however it's shown no signs of sagging.
A door frame might be providing support to the wall above, or could be underneath a lintel. There's no way to be sure which without getting under the decor and having a look.... the absence of a door frame alone isn't enough to draw a conclusion either way.
Did he have access to any other information not mentioned in your post?
In any event, you've got various other plans and problems with the building, and IIRC you are getting a structural engineer to take a look. If so, just add this doorway to their list of things to look at, if necessary with a builder on hand to remove anything which the SE needs removed to be able to see what they need to.
Edit: "I was considering whether we just re-instate the doors" - the doors themselves have no structural function.
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Section62 said:greensalad said:
However our surveyor has pointed out that removal of the french doors was not done properly as they were simply removed and no consideration was given to their functioning support for the wall above.
He has said that retrospective building regs will be needed, and they will be invasive (presumably they need to chip away the plaster to see what the situation is above the opening). He did say however it's shown no signs of sagging.Additionally, as discussed in section 4.7, originally there would have been external doors to the opening that now exists between the main building and the conservatory. The vendor advised that these were removed during their ownership. Often, doors and window frames provided an informal structural purpose to openings. Therefore, any removal such as this should be done so with caution and checked by a chartered structural engineer to ensure that the supporting lintel above the opening is adequate to support the opening following the removal of the original window and door frames. This sort of work is generally notifiable under the Building Regulations as well. The vendor advised that no such checks were made and building control approval was also not obtained. No issues in respect of the opening were noted at the time of my inspection, and the opening appears to have not suffered adversely since the door frame was removed; however, no comfort can be provided that this situation will not change in the future. You should therefore ask a chartered structural engineer to confirm that the area above the opening will not become unduly affected in the future or if further support is required before the exchange of contracts. Retrospective approval will also have to be obtained, and this could be disruptive and costly. For example, parts of the plasterwork will have to be removed so that the lintel can be inspected. This should be discussed with the vendors.
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greensalad said:Because the seller said no consideration was given to their support function when they removed them. Quote from the survey:
...The vendor advised that these were removed during their ownership. Often, doors and window frames provided an informal structural purpose to openings. Therefore, any removal such as this should be done so with caution and checked by a chartered structural engineer to ensure that the supporting lintel above the opening is adequate to support the opening following the removal of the original window and door frames. This sort of work is generally notifiable under the Building Regulations as well. The vendor advised that no such checks were made and building control approval was also not obtained....
This is a bit of a grey area. As the surveyor says, the structural function of a frame can be "informal" - usually meaning it supports some brickwork above the frame, but cannot act as a full structural element like a lintel or beam would.
So he is correct that removing the frame does need to be done with caution. But having done that, if there is a lintel or similar above, then it would be quite normal to assume that is the structural element and there wouldn't need to be involvement of BR, let alone a chartered structural engineer.
So the issue is how the vendor's response should be interpreted. If they physically did the work as a DIY project themselves then it does need further investigation. If the work was done by a competent builder it could simply be that the vendor is unaware whether or not the checks were made, rather than them knowing they weren't. That makes a big difference.
Either way, my previous advice remains the same, you are planning other work, so just get this doorway checked then.
The alternative option for the vendor is simply to reinstall a wooden frame and slap some paint on it, costing less than £100 if they DIY. So in my view there would be limited scope to negotiate a substantial sum for investigation and rectification work.
It is good that the surveyor has flagged this up, but this is one of the limited situations in which I think he is being slightly overcautious. If you weren't already planning alterations and needing a SE to look at the property the situation would be slightly different.
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So I guess our next steps are to ask the vendors if it was DIY'd or done by a builder?
I guess I'm just a bit confused about the exact requirements of it all. We don't want to put ourselves at risk of having a crumbling wall, but perhaps it's not going to be anywhere near as bad as that? Do we just need to pop a DIY frame in to help support the brickwork (that's something we can do ourselves we feel). I'm guessing it's more a case not that it's fully structural, but simply supporting the immediate brickwork around it?
Just getting myself worried because I don't want to go and buy a house and then have the back wall fall apart months later and not have insurance to cover it because we didn't do the paperwork at sale!0 -
Do you know if it's a cavity or solid wall?0
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stuart45 said:Do you know if it's a cavity or solid wall?0
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Any idea of the build date?0
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greensalad said:
So I guess our next steps are to ask the vendors if it was DIY'd or done by a builder?greensalad said:
I guess I'm just a bit confused about the exact requirements of it all. We don't want to put ourselves at risk of having a crumbling wall, but perhaps it's not going to be anywhere near as bad as that? Do we just need to pop a DIY frame in to help support the brickwork (that's something we can do ourselves we feel). I'm guessing it's more a case not that it's fully structural, but simply supporting the immediate brickwork around it?
Unless the frame was constructed as a structural element (so likely to be 6" or more deep) then it was probably between 2" and 3" deep. With french doors the span (side to side) should be around 1.7m. With those proportions the timber can't provide very much support. To avoid visible deflection (and cracking) we're talking about tens of kg loading as a maximum.
Being a cavity wall, it is almost certain there is a lintel or structural element of some kind - because a normal door frame alone wouldn't have been able to adequately support both leaves of the wall without signs of movement and cracking.
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stuart45 said:Any idea of the build date?0
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Section62 said:
Being a cavity wall, it is almost certain there is a lintel or structural element of some kind - because a normal door frame alone wouldn't have been able to adequately support both leaves of the wall without signs of movement and cracking.0
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