4 week notice period

Manxman_in_exile

Jillanddy said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

DontBringBertie said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

Because the pay (yearly salary) is based on calendar days not working days.

Don'tBringBertie is almost but not quite correct.  

If the OP's public sector post has an annual salary, then they will probably be paid monthly (annual salary divided by twelve months) and then within each month they will be paid according to the number of calendar days in that month.  So that means that each month's pay is equal and does not change from month to month. But depending on the number of calendar days in a particular month, days in some months are worth more than others.  So days in February are worth more in terms of salary than days in months with 30 days, and days in 30 day months are worth more than days in 31 day months.  But this is only really of any significance when employees either don't start or end at the beginning or end of a month.

MarkN88 - you get paid for unworked weekends in the public sector because your monthly salary (your annual salary divided by twelve) is spread across all the days in a month, not just working days.  Public sector workers don't get paid more in that respect - they actually get paid less per working day, but they also get paid for days in a month not worked.  As I say above, it's only really important when people start or leave in the middle of a month and a starter or leaver adjustment needs to be made.

The golden rule in the public sector is always leave a post on the day immediately before you start a new post, even if that makes your leaving day a Sunday.  It makes everything a lot simpler.

(It's probably because I worked nearly all my life in the public sector and am familiar with how the public sector works, but I find annual salary schemes based on actual days worked unnecessarily complicated.  Even the private sector jobs I've had were paid on months and then calendar days - never actual days worked).

I work in the public sector and have all my life. And my employer and many others do not work like that at all. It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do. For many employers that method was altered many years ago - as a response to public sector strikes, so that tells you how long ago it was! It made the effect of striking more costly to employees as the deductions for a working day and pension catch-up was higher. So resigning on a Friday or a Sunday would make no difference at all where I work, nor anywhere else that I know of. Our salaries are spread across the normal working days in the year and then divided by 12.

How long is all your life?  I started to work in the NHS (which at the time was reputed to be the largest employer in europe except for the Stasi or something similar) in 1988, and I don't recall the payment of salaries ever being any different from what I stated. 

I suspect the NHS remains the largest public sector employer in the UK to this day and so far as I can tell the current A4C handbook says this at Section 7, Tables 4 and 5:  NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook | NHS Employers.  They've never changed since I started from taking an annual salary, dividing by twelve and then apportioning across the calendar - not working - days in a month.  (Weekly salaries are apportioned mutatis mutandis).  Since I started in the NHS in 1988 I don't recall any significant public sector strikes that would call for this to be changed.

My wife is a Local Government employee and, so far as I recall, the last time she asked me to check a salary/pension question for her, she was getting paid for all the calendar days in a year/month and not the working days.  I suspect that NHS and local government staff make up by far the vast majority of public sector employees in this country and that most are paid as I suggested.  I'm happy to accept though that there may be exceptions, especially in some of the more unusual civil service areas and those that have fallen under private sector influence to one extent or another.  (Which might apply to the OP).

I don't really see the point of the whole "working days" -v- "calendar days" thing anyway.  It strikes me as something a "clever" person would tell an employer to do on the basis that if you are paying by calendar days then you are paying staff for days when they haven't worked and you can save money by switching to working days.  It's not that simple.  It reminds me of an argument discussion that was had with the NHS Information Centre in Leeds about the way sickness was measured in the NHS.  There was an intuitive feeling that because sickness was calculated on calendar days and not working days lost, then NHS sickness was being over-stated because you were over-counting the number of days staff were sick.  A few worked examples and an understanding of how staff are likely to behave if they fall sick on a non-working day demonstrates that you are better off calculating according to calendar days.  But, as I explained in another thread, when Gordon Brown's(?) government introduced the new doctors' contract, the NHS couldn't even count properly the number of doctors it employed, so the NHS as a central organisation may not be very good with numbers...

In my experience, if you have had things done in a particular way in the public sector for donkeys years then there is usually - but not necessarily always - a good reason for it being done that way.  You should only tinker with it if you know what you are doing.  Politicians, of course, never know what they are doing - and it makes no difference whether they are Labour or Tory.

74jax said:

Jillanddy said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

DontBringBertie said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

Because the pay (yearly salary) is based on calendar days not working days.

Don'tBringBertie is almost but not quite correct.  

If the OP's public sector post has an annual salary, then they will probably be paid monthly (annual salary divided by twelve months) and then within each month they will be paid according to the number of calendar days in that month.  So that means that each month's pay is equal and does not change from month to month. But depending on the number of calendar days in a particular month, days in some months are worth more than others.  So days in February are worth more in terms of salary than days in months with 30 days, and days in 30 day months are worth more than days in 31 day months.  But this is only really of any significance when employees either don't start or end at the beginning or end of a month.

MarkN88 - you get paid for unworked weekends in the public sector because your monthly salary (your annual salary divided by twelve) is spread across all the days in a month, not just working days.  Public sector workers don't get paid more in that respect - they actually get paid less per working day, but they also get paid for days in a month not worked.  As I say above, it's only really important when people start or leave in the middle of a month and a starter or leaver adjustment needs to be made.

The golden rule in the public sector is always leave a post on the day immediately before you start a new post, even if that makes your leaving day a Sunday.  It makes everything a lot simpler.

(It's probably because I worked nearly all my life in the public sector and am familiar with how the public sector works, but I find annual salary schemes based on actual days worked unnecessarily complicated.  Even the private sector jobs I've had were paid on months and then calendar days - never actual days worked).

I work in the public sector and have all my life. And my employer and many others do not work like that at all. It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do. For many employers that method was altered many years ago - as a response to public sector strikes, so that tells you how long ago it was! It made the effect of striking more costly to employees as the deductions for a working day and pension catch-up was higher. So resigning on a Friday or a Sunday would make no difference at all where I work, nor anywhere else that I know of. Our salaries are spread across the normal working days in the year and then divided by 12.

Exactly? So a day in February is worth more than a day in another month. Which is the point being made in the post you quoted.

I have no idea what this means you commented : 

It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do

(is it correct, is it not, or do you not know - in which case why mention it) 

Thank you.  I could not understand the point being made either.

The_Unready said:

...My department's (MOD) resignation policy states that the last day of service for resignation has to be a weekday. ...

I can understand the MoD wanting your last working day (or even - not withstanding the above - your last paid day) to be on a weekday, but I'm not sure why they would want your last day of "service" to be a weekday.  Although obviously I'm not familiar with your T&Cs. 

When I worked in the NHS each leaver needed a stated "Last working day" and a stated "Last day of service".  They might be the same date but they did not have to be.  (I could even conceive of a third "Last paid day" date but that would be very unusual and would usually be the same as your last day of service for reasons explained above).  The general advice would always be to make sure your last day of service was the day immediately preceding you starting a new job - even if that made your last day of service a weekend - ie a non-working day.

Manxman_in_exile

Just to add - this is all a bit of a "how many angels can you get on the head of a pin?" discussion as the whole question of working days -v- calendar days only really becomes relevant when adjustments have to be made for somebody not starting at the beginning of a month or not finishing at the end of a month.

OR  - when there is an issue over how many working days are actually in a month because of how rotas/rosters/shifts are organised, or what month Easter falls in.

But my advice to the OP and anybody else would remain: if you start a new job on Monday, you should try to ensure that your last day of service in the old job is the preceding Sunday - regardless of whether you are paid by working days or calendar days.  If you are paid in calendar days it ensures you are paid for Saturday and Sunday.  If you are paid in working days (and Saturday and Sunday aren't working days anyway) then it should make no difference to your employer either way - you will still only be paid up to your last working day.

The_Unready

The MOD's resignation rules apply to all (MOD Main) staff and they are not based on an individual's joining date.

Luckily, nobody needs to understand why the MOD have the rule I quoted earlier as part of the resignation policy, as I have pasted the relevant section below:

"Resignation and Retirement Policy

This Policy should be read in conjunction with the related Process and both must be followed. 

Step 3 - You must submit your resignation in writing to your line manager, giving the correct period of notice for your substantive grade (refer to Resignation Notice Periods). You must make sure your last day of service is a working day."

Manxman_in_exile

The_Unready said:

The MOD's resignation rules apply to all (MOD Main) staff and they are not based on an individual's joining date...

Perhaps.  But what they get paid in their starting month will depend on the date they started, and on whether they are paid in working days or calendar days.

The_Unready 

Step 3 - You must submit your resignation in writing to your line manager, giving the correct period of notice for your substantive grade (refer to Resignation Notice Periods). You must make sure your last day of service is a working day."

But saying that your last day of service must be a working day (which I can understand) is not necessarily the same as saying it must be a weekday (which I don't understand and is what you said before) is it?  I assume even some MoD civil servants work at the weekend?

EDIT:  And what happens if you don't do that and you put down a non-working day?  Do they shoot you?   

Jillanddy

74jax said:

Jillanddy said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

DontBringBertie said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

Because the pay (yearly salary) is based on calendar days not working days.

Don'tBringBertie is almost but not quite correct.  

If the OP's public sector post has an annual salary, then they will probably be paid monthly (annual salary divided by twelve months) and then within each month they will be paid according to the number of calendar days in that month.  So that means that each month's pay is equal and does not change from month to month. But depending on the number of calendar days in a particular month, days in some months are worth more than others.  So days in February are worth more in terms of salary than days in months with 30 days, and days in 30 day months are worth more than days in 31 day months.  But this is only really of any significance when employees either don't start or end at the beginning or end of a month.

MarkN88 - you get paid for unworked weekends in the public sector because your monthly salary (your annual salary divided by twelve) is spread across all the days in a month, not just working days.  Public sector workers don't get paid more in that respect - they actually get paid less per working day, but they also get paid for days in a month not worked.  As I say above, it's only really important when people start or leave in the middle of a month and a starter or leaver adjustment needs to be made.

The golden rule in the public sector is always leave a post on the day immediately before you start a new post, even if that makes your leaving day a Sunday.  It makes everything a lot simpler.

(It's probably because I worked nearly all my life in the public sector and am familiar with how the public sector works, but I find annual salary schemes based on actual days worked unnecessarily complicated.  Even the private sector jobs I've had were paid on months and then calendar days - never actual days worked).

I work in the public sector and have all my life. And my employer and many others do not work like that at all. It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do. For many employers that method was altered many years ago - as a response to public sector strikes, so that tells you how long ago it was! It made the effect of striking more costly to employees as the deductions for a working day and pension catch-up was higher. So resigning on a Friday or a Sunday would make no difference at all where I work, nor anywhere else that I know of. Our salaries are spread across the normal working days in the year and then divided by 12.

Exactly? So a day in February is worth more than a day in another month. Which is the point being made in the post you quoted.

I have no idea what this means you commented : 

It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do

(is it correct, is it not, or do you not know - in which case why mention it) 

Because weekends aren't included as working days, as I said. So a working day in February might be worth more in February than August, but Sundays are always worth the same - nothing. So in the OP's case, resigning on Sunday in my public sector organisations (and those I know) would get you exactly the same pay as resigning on Friday. The post I quoted said that in the public sector resigning on Sunday got you two days extra pay than resigning on Friday. That is definitely not true for us. Hence I said so. 

Manxman_in_exile

Jillanddy said:

74jax said:

Jillanddy said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

DontBringBertie said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

Because the pay (yearly salary) is based on calendar days not working days.

Don'tBringBertie is almost but not quite correct.  

If the OP's public sector post has an annual salary, then they will probably be paid monthly (annual salary divided by twelve months) and then within each month they will be paid according to the number of calendar days in that month.  So that means that each month's pay is equal and does not change from month to month. But depending on the number of calendar days in a particular month, days in some months are worth more than others.  So days in February are worth more in terms of salary than days in months with 30 days, and days in 30 day months are worth more than days in 31 day months.  But this is only really of any significance when employees either don't start or end at the beginning or end of a month.

MarkN88 - you get paid for unworked weekends in the public sector because your monthly salary (your annual salary divided by twelve) is spread across all the days in a month, not just working days.  Public sector workers don't get paid more in that respect - they actually get paid less per working day, but they also get paid for days in a month not worked.  As I say above, it's only really important when people start or leave in the middle of a month and a starter or leaver adjustment needs to be made.

The golden rule in the public sector is always leave a post on the day immediately before you start a new post, even if that makes your leaving day a Sunday.  It makes everything a lot simpler.

(It's probably because I worked nearly all my life in the public sector and am familiar with how the public sector works, but I find annual salary schemes based on actual days worked unnecessarily complicated.  Even the private sector jobs I've had were paid on months and then calendar days - never actual days worked).

I work in the public sector and have all my life. And my employer and many others do not work like that at all. It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do. For many employers that method was altered many years ago - as a response to public sector strikes, so that tells you how long ago it was! It made the effect of striking more costly to employees as the deductions for a working day and pension catch-up was higher. So resigning on a Friday or a Sunday would make no difference at all where I work, nor anywhere else that I know of. Our salaries are spread across the normal working days in the year and then divided by 12.

Exactly? So a day in February is worth more than a day in another month. Which is the point being made in the post you quoted.

I have no idea what this means you commented : 

It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do

(is it correct, is it not, or do you not know - in which case why mention it) 

Because weekends aren't included as working days, as I said. So a working day in February might be worth more in February than August, but Sundays are always worth the same - nothing. So in the OP's case, resigning on Sunday in my public sector organisations (and those I know) would get you exactly the same pay as resigning on Friday. The post I quoted said that in the public sector resigning on Sunday got you two days extra pay than resigning on Friday. That is definitely not true for us. Hence I said so. 

To satisfy my curiosity, can you indicate what public sector organisations do this (without identifying yourself or anybody else)?

Presumably ones that only work Monday to Friday?

(I'm genuinely interested to know as it's the sort of thing I'm curious about.  That must be obvious as I was so certain PS workers were paid across all the days in a year!).

Jillanddy

Manxman_in_exile said:

Jillanddy said:

74jax said:

Jillanddy said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

DontBringBertie said:

MarkN88 said:

How do you get an extra two days pay if you work Monday to Friday? 

Because the pay (yearly salary) is based on calendar days not working days.

Don'tBringBertie is almost but not quite correct.  

If the OP's public sector post has an annual salary, then they will probably be paid monthly (annual salary divided by twelve months) and then within each month they will be paid according to the number of calendar days in that month.  So that means that each month's pay is equal and does not change from month to month. But depending on the number of calendar days in a particular month, days in some months are worth more than others.  So days in February are worth more in terms of salary than days in months with 30 days, and days in 30 day months are worth more than days in 31 day months.  But this is only really of any significance when employees either don't start or end at the beginning or end of a month.

MarkN88 - you get paid for unworked weekends in the public sector because your monthly salary (your annual salary divided by twelve) is spread across all the days in a month, not just working days.  Public sector workers don't get paid more in that respect - they actually get paid less per working day, but they also get paid for days in a month not worked.  As I say above, it's only really important when people start or leave in the middle of a month and a starter or leaver adjustment needs to be made.

The golden rule in the public sector is always leave a post on the day immediately before you start a new post, even if that makes your leaving day a Sunday.  It makes everything a lot simpler.

(It's probably because I worked nearly all my life in the public sector and am familiar with how the public sector works, but I find annual salary schemes based on actual days worked unnecessarily complicated.  Even the private sector jobs I've had were paid on months and then calendar days - never actual days worked).

I work in the public sector and have all my life. And my employer and many others do not work like that at all. It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do. For many employers that method was altered many years ago - as a response to public sector strikes, so that tells you how long ago it was! It made the effect of striking more costly to employees as the deductions for a working day and pension catch-up was higher. So resigning on a Friday or a Sunday would make no difference at all where I work, nor anywhere else that I know of. Our salaries are spread across the normal working days in the year and then divided by 12.

Exactly? So a day in February is worth more than a day in another month. Which is the point being made in the post you quoted.

I have no idea what this means you commented : 

It is sweeping to say they all do - actually you may be correct but I don't know of any that currently do

(is it correct, is it not, or do you not know - in which case why mention it) 

Because weekends aren't included as working days, as I said. So a working day in February might be worth more in February than August, but Sundays are always worth the same - nothing. So in the OP's case, resigning on Sunday in my public sector organisations (and those I know) would get you exactly the same pay as resigning on Friday. The post I quoted said that in the public sector resigning on Sunday got you two days extra pay than resigning on Friday. That is definitely not true for us. Hence I said so. 

To satisfy my curiosity, can you indicate what public sector organisations do this (without identifying yourself or anybody else)?

Presumably ones that only work Monday to Friday?

(I'm genuinely interested to know as it's the sort of thing I'm curious about.  That must be obvious as I was so certain PS workers were paid across all the days in a year!).

It did used to be the case, and the ones I know are local government / regional government types. I honestly can't recall when it changed, but we used to get paid for 365 days a year (I can't remember what happened on leap years!). Then there were a series of public sector strikes one year. I recall the strikes (and yes, I was a striker) but not the year. Old age does that! Months later they changed the way that pay was organised to working days and excluding "weekends" - although those can be any non-working days. So you only get paid for working days. That increase the cost of striking for people, which made it harder for many to strike. I can't recall if there were pension changes around the same time as well, but I do know that if you strike or have unpaid time off, you have the option of making up pension payments yourself or potentially losing out. I do remember that it made a pretty big difference top our pay in terms of what we lost for a single day compared to what it had previously been. It didn't stop me, but it did have an impact on many peoples decisions the next year because they simply couldn't afford the loss of two or three days pay. 

Oh, and to add, it isn't just Monday - Friday workers, it includes whatever your personal "weekend" is as some people work weekends. Mostly manual workers, and I don't know a lot about how it works for them. If there are any left that haven't been outsourced!

Manxman_in_exile

OK.  I must say I'm surprised that people you know from local government are now paid according to working days. 

When you say "regional government", do you mean county council?  Coming from a NHS background I think of "regional" as being above county level, but in that sense we don't have government "regions" in the UK, do we?

In leap years you would have been paid for 366 days, but February would have been the only month affected.  (Well - strictly speaking you probably didn't used to be paid for either 365 or 366 days at all.  What you probably used to be paid was a monthly salary of 12 equal payments each year and if any salary adjustment was called for, that adjustment would be based on the number of calendar days in the affected month.  So 29 in February in a leap year.)

Thanks

Jillanddy

Manxman_in_exile said:

OK.  I must say I'm surprised that people you know from local government are now paid according to working days. 

When you say "regional government", do you mean county council?  Coming from a NHS background I think of "regional" as being above county level, but in that sense we don't have government "regions" in the UK, do we?

In leap years you would have been paid for 366 days, but February would have been the only month affected.  (Well - strictly speaking you probably didn't used to be paid for either 365 or 366 days at all.  What you probably used to be paid was a monthly salary of 12 equal payments each year and if any salary adjustment was called for, that adjustment would be based on the number of calendar days in the affected month.  So 29 in February in a leap year.)

Thanks

Well I'm one of the people I know !

Yes, we now do have a variety of forms of regional government in the UK - city regions with elected mayors for example. And England isn't the only part of the UK. Government structures in the UK have changed significantly and the national government continues to consider further sweeping changes. County Councils, despite being widespread in England, are a very old structure now, and it is questionable how long any form of two tier local government is likely to continue as it is not efficient or cost effective in many ways.