Small Claim Court - Tenant in arrears

grumiofoundation

Do not ask me how I know that and do not conclude anything, just be professional 

Might I suggest if you want professional advice that you pay for it. 

ciderboy2009

Mrowka said:

On the basis of some responses here I doubt some of you are experts in small claims court process.

Ok - I've worked for over 30 years for HMCTS in a large County Court so think that I could be classed as an "expert in County Court processes".

I agree with everything you've been told - what you are suggesting will not get you the result that you want. 

Even if you did issue a money claim separate to the possession claim then it is likely that the District Judge would order both cases to be heard at the same time - based on current listing levels for possessions you would probably be waiting at least a year for a hearing date.

Bear in mind that the claim for arrears etc would be an Unspecified claim as you won't know the actual amount of the claim until your tenant has left - this adds more potential for you to get things wrong.

You really need to get yourself some proper (ie: paid for) legal advice before you do something which ends up costing you a lot of money.  You also need to re-read and fully understand the responses here rather than just dismiss them because they don't say what you want them to.

Finally, if you want people to "just be professional" then you need to do the same rather than throwing your toys out of the pram each time somebody tells you that you've made a mistake.

You have already made mistakes - you need to accept that you have and learn from them.

Mrowka

ciderboy2009 said:

Mrowka said:

On the basis of some responses here I doubt some of you are experts in small claims court process.

Ok - I've worked for over 30 years for HMCTS in a large County Court so think that I could be classed as an "expert in County Court processes".

I agree with everything you've been told - what you are suggesting will not get you the result that you want. 

Even if you did issue a money claim separate to the possession claim then it is likely that the District Judge would order both cases to be heard at the same time - based on current listing levels for possessions you would probably be waiting at least a year for a hearing date.

Bear in mind that the claim for arrears etc would be an Unspecified claim as you won't know the actual amount of the claim until your tenant has left - this adds more potential for you to get things wrong.

You really need to get yourself some proper (ie: paid for) legal advice before you do something which ends up costing you a lot of money.  You also need to re-read and fully understand the responses here rather than just dismiss them because they don't say what you want them to.

Finally, if you want people to "just be professional" then you need to do the same rather than throwing your toys out of the pram each time somebody tells you that you've made a mistake.

You have already made mistakes - you need to accept that you have and learn from them.

Thank you. Could you please tell me which pre action protocol is should use for arrears claim only, as I hope there won't be requirement for eviction claim and is there any other guidance regarding small claims available? 

Mrowka

AdrianC said:

Mrowka said:

What to do if tenants plan is to leave UK?
...
because if I can start claim now I think even if tenant leave UK still be obligated to provide new address to the court. 

The only difference is that if the debtor has already left the country, it's a damn sight harder to actually lodge the claim. Is a UK court even the right one?

But even if they leave the UK during an ongoing claim, what do you plan to do about it? They probably don't care about a CCJ, and you aren't going to easily enforce the judgement, are you?

You still can't issue a claim pre-emptively, which is what you're trying to do.

Thanks. I plan to show tenant that this is getting serious.
Being passive is not a good tactic.

ciderboy2009

Mrowka said:

Thank you. Could you please tell me which pre action protocol is should use for arrears claim only, as I hope there won't be requirement for eviction claim and is there any other guidance regarding small claims available? 

Unfortunately not.  As a member of court staff I am not allowed to give anything that could be classed as legal advice.

Even if I could then it's not clear exactly what your claim will be for so the odds are that I would advise you incorrectly.

This is the main reason why you need to get proper legal advice rather than trying to do it based on guesswork.

Mrowka

ciderboy2009 said:

Unfortunately not.  As a member of court staff I am not allowed to give anything that could be classed as legal advice.

Even if I could then it's not clear exactly what your claim will be for so the odds are that I would advise you incorrectly.

So everybody knows that ciderboy2009 is Joe Bloggs working for HMCTS in a large County Court, good one. So why you are posting here, as any statement you made here could be classes as legal advise, unless someone on House Buying, Renting & Selling forum is asking how to suck eggs.

ciderboy2009 said:

This is the main reason why you need to get proper legal advice rather than trying to do it based on guesswork.

This is guidance on Landlordzone:

This Small Claims system has several advantages in that the process can be handled by the lay person – the litigant in person (LIP). You may seek the services of a solicitor to help you put your case together and represent you in court, but often the cost is out of proportion to the debt in question.

If you DIY a small claim, all that’s involved is the court fee and your time, though you do need to develop some knowledge of the process.

It looks to me that I might be capable of doing it myself, hence I decided to ask here for help.

ciderboy2009 said:

Even if I could then it's not clear exactly what your claim will be for so the odds are that I would advise you incorrectly.

but in earlier post you stated, two options:

ciderboy2009 said:

Even if you did issue a money claim separate to the possession claim then it is likely that the District Judge would order both cases to be heard at the same time - based on current listing levels for possessions you would probably be waiting at least a year for a hearing date.

and I confirmed

Mrowka said:

Thank you. Could you please tell me which pre action protocol is should use for arrears claim only, as I hope there won't be requirement for eviction claim and is there any other guidance regarding small claims available? 

So it is now clear what claim I want to make.

Kel_bels

You’ve been pretty rude to people who have tried to give you advice. Ciderboy has given no info that constitutes as ‘legal advice’. They’re just trying to help you. 

Are you sure you don’t want to issue proceedings for possession? 

What if you take the tenant to Court and you win… but the tenant remains in the property, doesn’t pay, yet accruing more arrears? You would have to go through the process again. If you ultimately then want possession of your property after that if the tenant won’t leave, you’ll have to take the tenant to court again. So it’s more cost effective to take them to Court for possession. Also, if possession is granted, a judge would automatically look at any rent arrears as well. 

One problem is that there is not a specific pre action protocol solely for rent arrears. The only one which may fit is the pre action protocol for debts, but it is unclear how much of an extent to it applies to rent arrears. You could issue and follow the debt pre action protocol and a judge could turn around and say “nope, rent arrears doesn’t fall under this one, sorry”. Hence why landlords go for possession, which then includes arrears. 

Also depending on the amount, it might not even come under the small claims track, which means further costs for yourself. 

ciderboy2009

Mrowka said:

So why you are posting here, as any statement you made here could be classes as legal advise

There is a difference between procedural advice and legal advice.

This is guidance on Landlordzone:

......

It looks to me that I might be capable of doing it myself, hence I decided to ask here for help.

You need to bear in mind that the judiciary will expect more knowledge from a landlord that you are currently displaying.  

So it is now clear what claim I want to make.

No it's not.  You were initially talking about claiming for rent that is not yet due - it's not clear to me if you are still thinking of trying this or not.  It's also not clear if your claim would follow the Small Claims track or if it would be allocated to the Fast or Multi track.

However, we will never know as you have, once again, thrown your toys out of the pram and I am not willing to give up any more of my time to assist someone with an attitude like yours.

deannagone

Unfortunately some people need to learn by doing.  I think this is that sort of situation.

Annisele

I might have missed this, but it's not clear to me if OP even knows if this is a "can't pay" or a "won't pay" situation on the tenants' part. Not paying rent is usually (not always!) a "can't pay" situation.

If the tenant doesn't have the money, then it doesn't matter how beautifully OP presents his case in court. Of OP does everything right, he might well get judgment against the tenants. But if the Ts literally can't pay, all OP will have done is wasted a bunch of time and energy (and helped trash the Ts' credit ratings, but they might already be trashed).

In OP's shoes I think I'd concentrate on ways to (legally!) get the Ts to leave. That's likely to mean a long wait for a court hearing. But I wouldn't be banking on actually getting the Ts to hand over any money at all re the damage to the property.

(Though I might change my mind depending on what the damage is. "T has damaged the kitchen cabinet" = not OP's problem right now; T might fix it before he leaves. "T has removed a load bearing wall and there's a risk the house will fall down on T's head" would be a different situation.)