Garden equipment hire, cancelled

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

pbartlett said:

Good advice above. I would only add - be careful what you email - eg don't start talking about how you should be able to cancel the contract as this would imply that you believed a contract was in place. I would not even contact them again as you 'cancelled' on the phone.

Many online retailers state a contract is formed upon dispatched, the average person wouldn't say they wish to withdraw their offer merely that they wish to cancel, it would be pretty harsh of the court to penalise the consumer for use of a colloquial term. 

The question is why didn't the OP get any "contract" or information, was it sent by email or post and not received and if so would the act of sending comply with providing?

MattMattMattUK

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

MattMattMattUK said:

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

I think the OP means they can't bear the thought of paying out a grand for something that isn't going to happen. 

LarryR

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The question is why didn't the OP get any "contract" or information, was it sent by email or post and not received and if so would the act of sending comply with providing?

They maintain they sent it by email, but I didn't receive it. Even in my spam folder?!? But surely, that's going to come down to their word against mine?! They said that in their contract it even says "When a booking has been accepted by the Client and the Supplier whether verbally, electronically or written, that booking is confirmed. The fact that the contract has not yet been signed and returned does not invalidate the booking or acceptance of these terms."

MattMattMattUK said:

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

All I was saying here was that as with most people, I'm not made of money, and can't really afford to just give them the money for nothing, if you know what I mean?

MattMattMattUK

LarryR said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The question is why didn't the OP get any "contract" or information, was it sent by email or post and not received and if so would the act of sending comply with providing?

They maintain they sent it by email, but I didn't receive it. Even in my spam folder?!? But surely, that's going to come down to their word against mine?! They said that in their contract it even says "When a booking has been accepted by the Client and the Supplier whether verbally, electronically or written, that booking is confirmed. The fact that the contract has not yet been signed and returned does not invalidate the booking or acceptance of these terms."

If they went to court they would need to present evidence that they sent the email, their word would not count in respect to that, even a printout of the email would not necessarily count, they might need something certified from an IT professional. Contracts can be verbal, but that does have an impact on terms and conditions, cancellation etc.

LarryR said:

MattMattMattUK said:

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

All I was saying here was that as with most people, I'm not made of money, and can't really afford to just give them the money for nothing, if you know what I mean?

It is worth checking as for a ticketed/revenue generating event it would potentially be classed as a B2B transaction which changes certain things (the main one being the Consumer Rights Act no longer applies).

At the moment they want you to pay the amount in full and you want to pay nothing, meeting somewhere in the middle will mean that it does not go to court. Not going to court and settling will of course cost you money, but if you go to court you risk having to pay the total amount plus fees. Are you willing to agree a compromise with them?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

LarryR said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The question is why didn't the OP get any "contract" or information, was it sent by email or post and not received and if so would the act of sending comply with providing?

They maintain they sent it by email, but I didn't receive it. Even in my spam folder?!? But surely, that's going to come down to their word against mine?! They said that in their contract it even says "When a booking has been accepted by the Client and the Supplier whether verbally, electronically or written, that booking is confirmed. The fact that the contract has not yet been signed and returned does not invalidate the booking or acceptance of these terms."

MattMattMattUK said:

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

All I was saying here was that as with most people, I'm not made of money, and can't really afford to just give them the money for nothing, if you know what I mean?

I'd ask them to resend, so you can see what the actual information is. 

Aylesbury_Duck

LarryR said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The question is why didn't the OP get any "contract" or information, was it sent by email or post and not received and if so would the act of sending comply with providing?

They maintain they sent it by email, but I didn't receive it. Even in my spam folder?!? But surely, that's going to come down to their word against mine?! They said that in their contract it even says "When a booking has been accepted by the Client and the Supplier whether verbally, electronically or written, that booking is confirmed. The fact that the contract has not yet been signed and returned does not invalidate the booking or acceptance of these terms."

MattMattMattUK said:

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

All I was saying here was that as with most people, I'm not made of money, and can't really afford to just give them the money for nothing, if you know what I mean?

This general principle always puzzles me.  You clearly can afford the money, because if the event went ahead you would be spending it, as you had planned to.  How would you have afforded it if the weather was good and it was going ahead?

It's like people that have lost money on cancelled holidays in the pandemic - they often say "it's money I can't afford to lose", which surely means it's money they couldn't afford to spend, so why book the holiday?

Back to the question at hand, you appear to have a choice.  Work with them to negotiate a sum that mitigates their genuine losses, or take the chance that they will pursue the full sum and hope that the lack of a written contract, deposit, etc. means a court would find in your favour.

LarryR

Aylesbury_Duck said:

LarryR said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

The question is why didn't the OP get any "contract" or information, was it sent by email or post and not received and if so would the act of sending comply with providing?

They maintain they sent it by email, but I didn't receive it. Even in my spam folder?!? But surely, that's going to come down to their word against mine?! They said that in their contract it even says "When a booking has been accepted by the Client and the Supplier whether verbally, electronically or written, that booking is confirmed. The fact that the contract has not yet been signed and returned does not invalidate the booking or acceptance of these terms."

MattMattMattUK said:

LarryR said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Is this is a B2B transaction?  It may affect how this plays out.

Sorry, forgot to answer this. No, it was a private transaction.

Just for clarity on this, as to me it does not make total sense.

LarryR said:

I said I'm sorry but there's no way I can pay the full amount, especially if the event is not going ahead. They have subsequently emailed that they have no choice but to pursue me through the courts to recover their costs - which is the full amount (about £1125) 

How does the event not going ahead make a difference to if you can pay if the event was not on a commercial basis? Eg. if it were private, surely you have the money regardless. If it was commercial that makes more sense as you would be expecting revenue from the event itself to cover the cost.

All I was saying here was that as with most people, I'm not made of money, and can't really afford to just give them the money for nothing, if you know what I mean?

This general principle always puzzles me.  You clearly can afford the money, because if the event went ahead you would be spending it, as you had planned to.  How would you have afforded it if the weather was good and it was going ahead?

It's like people that have lost money on cancelled holidays in the pandemic - they often say "it's money I can't afford to lose", which surely means it's money they couldn't afford to spend, so why book the holiday?

Back to the question at hand, you appear to have a choice.  Work with them to negotiate a sum that mitigates their genuine losses, or take the chance that they will pursue the full sum and hope that the lack of a written contract, deposit, etc. means a court would find in your favour.

As the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said (probably better than I did) "I think the OP means they can't bear the thought of paying out a grand for something that isn't going to happen. ". I could afford it, especially if it went ahead.

I'm sympathetic to their situation and that they're out of pocket, but I thought that working in a business where things like weather can affect things, they would almost build cancelations, etc. into their cost of doing business. Never occurred to me that without seeing/signing a contract or paying a deposit, they would have actually gone ahead and sent me anything? That would have been a huge risk on their part ... but then again, I guess they were working on good faith and that I sounded like I was definitely going ahead with it.

MattMattMattUK said:

If they went to court they would need to present evidence that they sent the email, their word would not count in respect to that, even a printout of the email would not necessarily count, they might need something certified from an IT professional. Contracts can be verbal, but that does have an impact on terms and conditions, cancellation etc.

They said their invoice system automatically sends out the contract, so they could conceivably evidence that ... but that doesn't mean I received it? 

How would I even word a negotiating email so as not to tie myself in knots and say something I shouldn't? Is there a template or things I should/shouldn't say?

Thanks everyone

pbartlett

So they maintain they did send the information, but you didn't receive it, and they also maintain they did not receive your 'cancellation email'.

Very strange.

powerful_Rogue

pbartlett said:

So they maintain they did send the information, but you didn't receive it, and they also maintain they did not receive your 'cancellation email'.

Very strange.

Goes both ways, as the OP is claiming the same.