Co-operate Bank - alternatives, please?

Nebulous2

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

But isn't it just fascinating how the simple act of asking for straightforward, honest dealing with a reasonable standard of customer service actually leads with great rapidity, in the case of British retail banks as with almost no other sector, to 'ranting'? I repeat that successive governments have let them off the hook, not held them to account and the resultant mess ensures that almost nobody is satisfied.

'Ever evolving regulation' is not the cause of the problem. Failure to invest in people and systems is. They'd rather, far rather, give money to the get-rich-quick shareholders.

I'm very, very far from being alone in my belief... I hear it shared by virtually everyone I meet, the mere mention of 'bank' being greeted by a weary roll of the eyes... 

Loyalty to a bank is often misplaced, particularly where they are no longer working for you. I was a longstanding Clydesdale bank customer and often recommended them to other people. After a complaint which they handled very badly I switched and have gone on a journey with multiple bank accounts, sign up bonuses, monthly rewards etc. I recently decided to reconsider Clydesdale and try them again, but they turned me down! 

That brings me to my main point however. The most astonishing thing about banks is how much they give us free of charge. Even thinking about a cash machine. They need to buy it, site it, maintain it and stock it. They need the back office functions and computers to monitor your bank balance and link to the cash machine. You go along, stick your card in, enter your pin and withdraw £100. That has cost the bank somewhere around £2-3 to get the money into your hand. How much has it cost you? 

Since the financial crash banks have been much more closely regulated, which has limited the ways they can raise money from their customers directly, but yet we still expect the same or better service. That's my main takeaway from banking- we are on a surprising streak, where they are providing a great deal of benefits and they cannot work out a way to get any money from me!

MoJoeGo

Nebulous2 said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

But isn't it just fascinating how the simple act of asking for straightforward, honest dealing with a reasonable standard of customer service actually leads with great rapidity, in the case of British retail banks as with almost no other sector, to 'ranting'? I repeat that successive governments have let them off the hook, not held them to account and the resultant mess ensures that almost nobody is satisfied.

'Ever evolving regulation' is not the cause of the problem. Failure to invest in people and systems is. They'd rather, far rather, give money to the get-rich-quick shareholders.

I'm very, very far from being alone in my belief... I hear it shared by virtually everyone I meet, the mere mention of 'bank' being greeted by a weary roll of the eyes... 

Loyalty to a bank is often misplaced, particularly where they are no longer working for you. I was a longstanding Clydesdale bank customer and often recommended them to other people. After a complaint which they handled very badly I switched and have gone on a journey with multiple bank accounts, sign up bonuses, monthly rewards etc. I recently decided to reconsider Clydesdale and try them again, but they turned me down! 

That brings me to my main point however. The most astonishing thing about banks is how much they give us free of charge. Even thinking about a cash machine. They need to buy it, site it, maintain it and stock it. They need the back office functions and computers to monitor your bank balance and link to the cash machine. You go along, stick your card in, enter your pin and withdraw £100. That has cost the bank somewhere around £2-3 to get the money into your hand. How much has it cost you? 

Since the financial crash banks have been much more closely regulated, which has limited the ways they can raise money from their customers directly, but yet we still expect the same or better service. That's my main takeaway from banking- we are on a surprising streak, where they are providing a great deal of benefits and they cannot work out a way to get any money from me!

Absolutely this. We conveniently ignore the rising overheads in financial services, while simultaneously demanding good service for free. 

Needless to say, it would take a very brave bank to be the first to tell its customers that they are living in cloud cuckoo land and that they need to pay through the nose, so what do they do? They move their large scale operations like call centres to somewhere cheaper than the UK. They invest in digital self service tools to minimise costly human contact (which is exactly what many people prefer anyway) - the previous bank I worked at had specific targets for achieving high % overall self serve transactions. There was constant analysis of the categories of queries that had to be dealt with by a human, so that an automated solution could be found.

This is by the way, this is entirely consistent with how the 'city' has evolved from a merchant/investment banking standpoint - process trades/transactions at a higher volume and speed with less and less manual intervention, thereby reducing costs. Not that many 'open outcry' exchanges left in the developed world... but I digress

The other point I'd make is that the OP underestimates the impact of regulation on customer service at their peril. The costs of implementation and ongoing compliance are prohibitive to small institutions like building societies - the same sorts of business that you might traditionally expect personal service from as they have a smaller client base. Operating at a larger scale is the only way to manage these costs, and so there will be more mergers and acquisitions in future. 

Case in point - I used to be a member of a small unincorporated friendly society. We had regular meetings (usually in a pub, with a few pints) across a wide branch and regional network, we knew where the money was invested, we made grants to members when they were sick and when their children went to college. We could get involved as much or as little as we wanted. It was lovely - they even had decent investment products. But gradually, regulation increased, people couldn't just recommend investments to their friends like they did before. You had to have properly trained and authorised salespeople (I'm thinking back to the days of LAUTRO if anyone remembers that). Suddenly their way of operating had to change, costs rose, they were forced to incorporate and centralise their operations at a head office level to ensure that things were done 'correctly'. No more branch network, no more "hello Jim, how's the wife and kids". This was a long long time ago, but the same is still happening today, just at an even greater scale.

So all in all, the fact that I make a NET PROFIT of over £20/month from my 2 main banks is nothing short of a miracle. If you want better service (in an old fashioned sort of way), better get used to the idea that you will have to pay through the nose in future!

jimjames

Having switched from Tesco to Bank of Scotland recently (and just before they pulled the plug) as well as having a few other accounts I can say with some experience that I've not seen any bad examples of customer service albeit my requirements are somewhat different to yours. The only bank that was a nightmare to deal with was HSBC for opening accounts but it may be better if you need to contact them afterwards.

The times I did need to phone Tesco were dealt with quickly but that was pre pandemic. In general my requirement is that I interact with my bank as little as possible and if I can do everything over the app then that suits me perfectly. 

So good luck trying to find something suitable, it does sound like FD might do what you want but you are probably in a minority now that want to be able to call your bank to do transactions that they allow you to do yourself.

gt94sss2

WillPS said:

gt94sss2 said:

badger09 said:

First Direct is probably still the leader as far as telephone banking is concerned, but as said above, even FD are encouraging customers to use online/app based banking where possible. However, it doesn't have any branch network of its own.

I would also recommend First Direct for the OP given their requirements.

You can also use HSBC branches and Post Offices with First Direct.

Only the counters at HSBC branches for the time being tho, not the paying in machines.

Depends what brand of debit card you have..

WillPS

gt94sss2 said:

WillPS said:

gt94sss2 said:

badger09 said:

First Direct is probably still the leader as far as telephone banking is concerned, but as said above, even FD are encouraging customers to use online/app based banking where possible. However, it doesn't have any branch network of its own.

I would also recommend First Direct for the OP given their requirements.

You can also use HSBC branches and Post Offices with First Direct.

Only the counters at HSBC branches for the time being tho, not the paying in machines.

Depends what brand of debit card you have..

If you open a new account, that's a Mastercard.

jbrassy

Nebulous2 said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

But isn't it just fascinating how the simple act of asking for straightforward, honest dealing with a reasonable standard of customer service actually leads with great rapidity, in the case of British retail banks as with almost no other sector, to 'ranting'? I repeat that successive governments have let them off the hook, not held them to account and the resultant mess ensures that almost nobody is satisfied.

'Ever evolving regulation' is not the cause of the problem. Failure to invest in people and systems is. They'd rather, far rather, give money to the get-rich-quick shareholders.

I'm very, very far from being alone in my belief... I hear it shared by virtually everyone I meet, the mere mention of 'bank' being greeted by a weary roll of the eyes... 

Loyalty to a bank is often misplaced, particularly where they are no longer working for you. I was a longstanding Clydesdale bank customer and often recommended them to other people. After a complaint which they handled very badly I switched and have gone on a journey with multiple bank accounts, sign up bonuses, monthly rewards etc. I recently decided to reconsider Clydesdale and try them again, but they turned me down! 

That brings me to my main point however. The most astonishing thing about banks is how much they give us free of charge. Even thinking about a cash machine. They need to buy it, site it, maintain it and stock it. They need the back office functions and computers to monitor your bank balance and link to the cash machine. You go along, stick your card in, enter your pin and withdraw £100. That has cost the bank somewhere around £2-3 to get the money into your hand. How much has it cost you? 

Since the financial crash banks have been much more closely regulated, which has limited the ways they can raise money from their customers directly, but yet we still expect the same or better service. That's my main takeaway from banking- we are on a surprising streak, where they are providing a great deal of benefits and they cannot work out a way to get any money from me!

Even if banks are not charging you any fees for their services, they are still making money from you. Current accounts seldom pay any interest on balances. Therefore, when you put money into a current account, you are effectively lending the bank money at zero interest. They can subsequently lend this money out to their customers in the form of mortgages and loans which they subsequently profit from. 

Essentially, banks profit from current accounts by not paying any interest on balances. 

MoJoeGo

jbrassy said:

Nebulous2 said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

But isn't it just fascinating how the simple act of asking for straightforward, honest dealing with a reasonable standard of customer service actually leads with great rapidity, in the case of British retail banks as with almost no other sector, to 'ranting'? I repeat that successive governments have let them off the hook, not held them to account and the resultant mess ensures that almost nobody is satisfied.

'Ever evolving regulation' is not the cause of the problem. Failure to invest in people and systems is. They'd rather, far rather, give money to the get-rich-quick shareholders.

I'm very, very far from being alone in my belief... I hear it shared by virtually everyone I meet, the mere mention of 'bank' being greeted by a weary roll of the eyes... 

Loyalty to a bank is often misplaced, particularly where they are no longer working for you. I was a longstanding Clydesdale bank customer and often recommended them to other people. After a complaint which they handled very badly I switched and have gone on a journey with multiple bank accounts, sign up bonuses, monthly rewards etc. I recently decided to reconsider Clydesdale and try them again, but they turned me down! 

That brings me to my main point however. The most astonishing thing about banks is how much they give us free of charge. Even thinking about a cash machine. They need to buy it, site it, maintain it and stock it. They need the back office functions and computers to monitor your bank balance and link to the cash machine. You go along, stick your card in, enter your pin and withdraw £100. That has cost the bank somewhere around £2-3 to get the money into your hand. How much has it cost you? 

Since the financial crash banks have been much more closely regulated, which has limited the ways they can raise money from their customers directly, but yet we still expect the same or better service. That's my main takeaway from banking- we are on a surprising streak, where they are providing a great deal of benefits and they cannot work out a way to get any money from me!

Even if banks are not charging you any fees for their services, they are still making money from you. Current accounts seldom pay any interest on balances. Therefore, when you put money into a current account, you are effectively lending the bank money at zero interest. They can subsequently lend this money out to their customers in the form of mortgages and loans which they subsequently profit from. 

Essentially, banks profit from current accounts by not paying any interest on balances. 

Although if you have an ounce of sense, you don't leave any more in a zero paying current account than necessary to service your bills and other payments. 

So it's the old story that free banking is subsidised by those that don't play the system right. Not entirely unlike flying Ryanair...

gsmh

MoJoeGo said:

Although if you have an ounce of sense, you don't leave any more in a zero paying current account than necessary to service your bills and other payments. 

I clearly don't have even 28.3 grams of sense. Interest is so low these days that I leave my paltry savings in a virtual pot in my current account.

p00hsticks

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

'Ever evolving regulation' is not the cause of the problem. Failure to invest in people and systems is. They'd rather, far rather, give money to the get-rich-quick shareholders.

I don't think if I was looking for shares to get me rich quick I'd be opting for any in the banking sector.....

jbrassy

MoJoeGo said:

jbrassy said:

Nebulous2 said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

MoJoeGo said:

RainbowsInTheSpray said:

MoJoeGo said:

 though is that if you were promised something 15 years ago and they delivered for at least 7-8 of those then that wasn't a bad result. In modern banking terms, 7-8 years is an eternity.

I expect light bulbs to last longer than that.

The retail banking sector in this country is an absolute joke. Why some government hasn't stepped in at some stage over the last twenty years is a mystery... or, more likely probably, the result of quiet Sunday morning golf club arm twisting at the nineteenth hole...

Meh... perhaps you do. Of course that one lightbulb doesn't have to constantly change how it operates due to ever evolving regulation (and the costs that go with it), but if that simplistic analogy serves its purpose, i.e. opening the floodgates for this thread to turn into a general rant about banks, then go right ahead.

Given that much of the world doesn't really have the concept of 'free' banking, be careful when you draw up your laundry list of service requirements. Whatever the right and wrongs of the Coop specifically, you may find you have to actually pay for what you want.

Unless of course you think that the banks owe everyone a 'hair-shirt' level act of contrition. Which isn't going to happen, and no government will ever force the issue.

But isn't it just fascinating how the simple act of asking for straightforward, honest dealing with a reasonable standard of customer service actually leads with great rapidity, in the case of British retail banks as with almost no other sector, to 'ranting'? I repeat that successive governments have let them off the hook, not held them to account and the resultant mess ensures that almost nobody is satisfied.

'Ever evolving regulation' is not the cause of the problem. Failure to invest in people and systems is. They'd rather, far rather, give money to the get-rich-quick shareholders.

I'm very, very far from being alone in my belief... I hear it shared by virtually everyone I meet, the mere mention of 'bank' being greeted by a weary roll of the eyes... 

Loyalty to a bank is often misplaced, particularly where they are no longer working for you. I was a longstanding Clydesdale bank customer and often recommended them to other people. After a complaint which they handled very badly I switched and have gone on a journey with multiple bank accounts, sign up bonuses, monthly rewards etc. I recently decided to reconsider Clydesdale and try them again, but they turned me down! 

That brings me to my main point however. The most astonishing thing about banks is how much they give us free of charge. Even thinking about a cash machine. They need to buy it, site it, maintain it and stock it. They need the back office functions and computers to monitor your bank balance and link to the cash machine. You go along, stick your card in, enter your pin and withdraw £100. That has cost the bank somewhere around £2-3 to get the money into your hand. How much has it cost you? 

Since the financial crash banks have been much more closely regulated, which has limited the ways they can raise money from their customers directly, but yet we still expect the same or better service. That's my main takeaway from banking- we are on a surprising streak, where they are providing a great deal of benefits and they cannot work out a way to get any money from me!

Even if banks are not charging you any fees for their services, they are still making money from you. Current accounts seldom pay any interest on balances. Therefore, when you put money into a current account, you are effectively lending the bank money at zero interest. They can subsequently lend this money out to their customers in the form of mortgages and loans which they subsequently profit from. 

Essentially, banks profit from current accounts by not paying any interest on balances. 

Although if you have an ounce of sense, you don't leave any more in a zero paying current account than necessary to service your bills and other payments. 

So it's the old story that free banking is subsidised by those that don't play the system right. Not entirely unlike flying Ryanair...

Absolutely. If you have lots of money parked in a zero interest current account, you are definitely losing out. You should move it to a savings account with a decent interest rate or a stocks and shares ISA.

Even so, everyone needs to keep some money in their current account for a short period of time to pay for bills etc. Banks can still profit from this by lending it out in the money markets overnight at low risk and make a small profit. Across their entire portfolio of customers, I imagine this is quite lucrative. 

Slightly off-topic, but airlines are another interesting example. You should never pay full price for business or first class seats on a flight. Economy seats on a flight are typically sold at a loss and are cross-subsidised by those flying business or first class where the airline makes juicy profit margins. You should only fly business or first class if someone else is paying (like your employer) or you pay using Avios points (or whatever loyalty points the airline uses).