Council Tax Fines/Charges do I have to pay them?

james72

Hi,

Long one - so I will write in note form but can elaborate if needed. 

If it's TL:DR then I have the two questions I'm asking at the bottom...


I was given THREE council tax bills - one for a place I clearly didn't live at. 

Before I got them, months before, I was told by UC that council tax would be paid for [as not working]. I think at the height of the pandemic they had a lot of new staff on the phones, and it seems from future conversations the chap mislead me a little. But they acknowledge that this was an error, and I obvious they were overwhelmed so I am sure this sort of thing [with new staff] happened a fair bit.

I have been emailing and calling various departments [council tax recovery/benefits/bailiffs] over the last 18 months. It seems things are little backed up [something to do with emails having to be manually added to people's accounts]. I'd been told twice there were stops on the accounts, and then I still got visits from debt collectors.

I couldn't of paid the bills anyway.

My claim for my legitimate account was messed up somewhat as they 'messed' up my name - and seemed to suggest because they sent a letter in the wrong name, that I didn't get - because it was in the wrong name, that I didn't reply to [about giving them my correct name] that they closed my application. And I needed to ask for them to reopen the 'claim'/decision. Yes, it's all rather confusing and feels like a catch 22 situation.

Anyway, I'd write an email. Call them two weeks later. Get told I needed to wait 15 working days... call back after that time frame... and they claimed to not have the email, even though I got a 'confirmation' reply email at the time I sent it... rinse and repeat 

Eventually - after around 20+ emails and far more phone calls... all three accounts got sorted out. This was a couple of weeks ago and happened all at the same time, someone must have taken charge of the situation... 

The one nothing to do with me, that had gone to court  and I'd had bailiffs phoning and door stopping me over - they finally could see I hadn't lived there. I mean I'd shown them proof of that from the get go... g'ah. So that was 'cancelled'.

I got the council tax sorted for me on both the other accounts. One is fully paid off. 

The other one, I had a one month gap from the start and when I went onto UC. So in total I owed money for about one month and 8 or so days.

So my bill went down from over 5k [for three accounts] to the £200 I actually owe.

Except they added £130 in costs. For I guess letters/court costs/bailiff visits?

The person on the phone said I had to pay that £130. Because it was from court stuff. There was no right to appeal. Except of course all the court costs to the other two accounts had been taken off. Just the one where I owed for 40-ish days of council tax.

What I don't get is, I was being asked for 5k. I couldn't pay that amount. If they had of asked me for £200, I could have and would have paid it at the time.

The person suggested it was my fault for not agreeing to a payment plan. I tried to explain - 'but I didn't owe the 5k', he suggested I should have agreed a payment plan anyway and got the rest of the 5k back after I 'won the case'. 

Hmm. 

It seems a bit off to me. Also the amount of time I have spent on all of this. I guess I'm being an idiot now - as I feel it's on principle I shouldn't pay the £130.

QUESTION ONE:

Is there anyway to pay the council tax and make it clear you are not paying the fine. And then if they want to take me to court for this, I can speak up there.

QUESTION TWO:

Anyone with experience of this sort of thing. Is it really impossible to appeal these charges? If not, who do I contact and how do I go about that.

Thanks for any help/abuse.

Best wishes xx

CIS

1)

There is no 'fine' for council tax. Any additional monies are court fees, which are recoverable under the exact same rules as council tax, or they are enforcement agent fees (which can be recovered by a county court).

It has already been to court in respect of liability order costs so there's no way you're readily going to be able to dispute those costs in a court.

2)

UC have no say over council tax, they have no say in what the award made by the council will be. As many of here will know, I deal with specifically with council tax disputes as my day job. Whether or not the court fees can be disputed would need someone to actually look at the full background of the case and see exactly what happened. There may be scope to dispute the fees with the council but it's going to be very situation specific and dependant on which account incurred the fees, and which fees.

james72

Hey thanks,

In Regards to 1) yes. The 'fines' are costs, that is I guess court, and for bailiffs leaving letters/etc. I realise I'm using the word 'fines' wrongly. You are totally correct.

2) the original UC person I spoke to, wrongly, told me by getting it [UC], and what he was doing - meant my council tax was being paid/covered too. Obviously that person was wrong. I don't think they were doing this on purpose. I think my questions about council tax were 'new' to him. I think at the height of people calling up for UC they brought on a load of staff. The fact I was told this, hasn't been disputed. They have/had the tapes of the call. 

Now just because I was told one thing [that wasn't correct] - that doesn't mean I'm blaming them for everything. I'm just glad that [eventually] it all got sorted out.

I just don't think it's 'fair' to give me court costs, I get they were backed up. Yes I owed £200 - they were asking for over 5k. That I had no way to pay. They had told me twice the account was put on hold, and no further action would happen for 2 weeks. Only to tell me a few weeks ago my account had never had a hold put on it. So either they were not telling the truth at the time, I did get bailiffs turn up the next day, or the holds were applied but not kept on record.

I also contacted them before a court date, even though I had proof it wasn't my bill... the person said to email it, they would get back to me, but she'd put a note on the system. She explained the court case would go ahead. But the note meant that they would not act on any order given for a few weeks. Ok, that was the account nothing to do with me, so I didn't have those 'fines' [yes, court costs] - but still, when it was so easy to show it wasn't me.... it makes no sense to allow the court case to run.

Anyway - I'm rambling I guess.

In regards to the costs/bill. I guess I can pay the £200 I do owe... and NOT pay the £130 in costs. Then what? Do I get bailiffs annoying me? Or do they not bother for £130? And if they contact me for it - do I then contact them and say I'm disputing it? Would I then at that point take the matter for someone to look at? Where/who should I go to? CAB? Thanks again for your help. And sorry for the further questions...

CosmoChic

All of that sounds horrendous and stress-filled.  I'd be furious in your circumstances, and would also be willing to pay only the £200. 

In terms of obtaining advice, that may not be straightforward.  I have no specialist or insider knowledge of this, but I'd imagine your case is unique - three accounts/court fees/Covid chaos.  I'd further imagine places like CAB will most probably not have encountered anyone with your particular set of circumstances, but no harm in contacting them.

If it were me, I'd pay the £200 asap.  Then, I'd email my MP, local councillor and the Chief Exec of the council responsible for the mess in which you find yourself.  I'd tell them so far as I was concerned I had no remaining debt, and ask them to confirm that is the case. 

I think you'll find it's resolved pretty quickly thereafter, particularly if you follow up with a call to enquire how things are *progressing* a few days after emailing.   

My insider knowledge in this regard, comes from having been PA to some pretty high-powered people in my day.  Absolutely, the last thing I needed was an MPs PA, a councillor and a frustrated client having to harass me for a response.  I would have been heavily on the tail of whomever had the authority to sort the mess out for you - probably the Director of Finance.  I doubt much has changed since I moved on from that role!

Good luck, and keep us posted!

CIS

Multiple liability orders are very common. I regularly used to deal with cases that involved 5 or 6 orders, as would anyone who has worked in council tax recovery for any length of time. You are right that it is likely beyond CAB as these things can be get quite technical, and so way beyond the depth that CAB deal with.

The one thing that should never be recommended is to not pay - council tax is a very blunt tool that can make your life a misery with the recovery action.

It may well be that the OP is correct and it is all  incorrect but then again it may, legally, all be correct. What is often overlooked is the myriad of legislation which provides for what is, in reality, a tax law aimed at collecting money, not being nice to tax payers. As I mentioned earlier it is not as simple as saying the costs aren't correct - it is far more nuanced than that and there's nowhere near enough to say. For example I regularly have to spend one or two hours for clients trying to work through the background of a particular order to see if it is right or not, a five minute read on a forum is very unlikely to provide sufficient evidence.