Holiday pay for 0 hour contract

Penguin_

Hi all

My daughter, 16 (17 next week), works in a local pub & to be fair to her she has been working a fair amount of hours. We are away this week & a couple of weeks ago I told her to mention it to her boss so she wasn't scheduled to work when we're away. She duly did & her boss said in a jokey way "oooh your pay will be tiny that week!". That got me thinking about how much paid leave she should be getting, I know it goes on the hours she has worked but I guess my question is if she is entitled to it, when would it be paid to her?

JGB1955

There is some guidance here: Calculating holiday pay for workers without fixed hours or pay - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Penguin_

Thanks for that, at present if my daughter 'books a day off' i.e she says she can't work that specific day or days, I don't think it is being treated as annual leave. Does this mean the employer would have to pay the holiday pay accrued at the end of the year?

getmore4less

Holiday pay should not be paid at the end of the holiday year unless leaving.

but

For zero hours and part time you should be able to just book the holiday as extra and get paid for it as long as you are not doing too many hours in that period..


For zero hours where you can pick and choose your working time the easiest way is to take the Holliday as you go so it does not accumulate with any risk of it not being paid..

There were a few ways to work it out the starting point is to see how the employer want to do it and check if that is at least enough.

Employer may have the idea they don't pay holiday pay so that's the first hurdle to cross.

Then probably worth getting all the accrued holiday used and paid.


The rules changed April last year that holiday pay should be the average of the last 52 weeks (adjusted if there are not 52 weeks within the last 2 years)


One common way was to allocate some holiday hours in the same pay period as a proportion(12.07%) of the hours worked
(some NHS bank staff got paid that way and may still be).



This no longer works,  even zero hours are due 5.6 weeks off paid every year,  the pay for the week is based on the previous 52 weeks(with pay)
 

General_Grant

getmore4less said:

. . .

One common way was to allocate some holiday hours in the same pay period as a proportion(12.07%) of the hours worked
(some NHS bank staff got paid that way and may still be).



This no longer works,  even zero hours are due 5.6 weeks off paid every year,  the pay for the week is based on the previous 52 weeks(with pay)
 

Not sure what "no longer works". 
The 12.07% (or 12.069% if they go down to 3 decimal places) equates to 5.6 weeks holiday.
If it's about the rate of pay for the time, then unless there was a significant change to the hourly rate in the last few months, most employers will use the current rate.

getmore4less

The confusion arises because the holiday accrual and holiday pay get merged into a single entity which works a lot of the time for a lot of people and comes up with something that feels right looks right and seems to be fair using prorata


The law treats them separately.

The starting point is everyone is entitled to 5.6 weeks holiday(Or more if contractual).

Then a weeks pay should have been average of the last 12 weeks not 12.07%, they can be different, since April last year a weeks holiday pay is the average of the last 52 paid weeks going back up to 104 weeks.

The 2017 EAT Brazel V Harpur case considers these issue(before the change to 52 weeks)
summary (one of many)
https://www.citation.co.uk/news/hr-and-employment-law/new-ruling-sees-part-year-workers-holiday-pay-no-longer-pro-rated/

Scheduled to go to appeal at the supreme court 9 Nov 2021.


The use of the average of the previous weeks can cause a significant deviation from a 12.07% calculations especialy now  it can go back 2 years worth of weeks to get 52 with pay

bartelbe

The issue I suspect, is many employers are clueless about the law and think zero hours means no holiday entitlement or pay. Since the employee's working hours are at the whim of the employer, it is very difficult for employees to challenge bad zero hours employers.

General_Grant

getmore4less said:

The confusion arises because the holiday accrual and holiday pay get merged into a single entity which works a lot of the time for a lot of people and comes up with something that feels right looks right and seems to be fair using prorata


The law treats them separately.

The starting point is everyone is entitled to 5.6 weeks holiday(Or more if contractual).

Then a weeks pay should have been average of the last 12 weeks not 12.07%, they can be different, since April last year a weeks holiday pay is the average of the last 52 paid weeks going back up to 104 weeks.

The 2017 EAT Brazel V Harpur case considers these issue(before the change to 52 weeks)
summary (one of many)
https://www.citation.co.uk/news/hr-and-employment-law/new-ruling-sees-part-year-workers-holiday-pay-no-longer-pro-rated/

Scheduled to go to appeal at the supreme court 9 Nov 2021.


The use of the average of the previous weeks can cause a significant deviation from a 12.07% calculations especialy now  it can go back 2 years worth of weeks to get 52 with pay

You are right that the 12.07% is not the calculation for the pay.  It is, however, the percentage to use for time.

General_Grant said:

getmore4less said:

. . .

One common way was to allocate some holiday hours in the same pay period as a proportion(12.07%) of the hours worked
(some NHS bank staff got paid that way and may still be).



This no longer works,  even zero hours are due 5.6 weeks off paid every year,  the pay for the week is based on the previous 52 weeks(with pay)
 

. . .
The 12.07% (or 12.069% if they go down to 3 decimal places) equates to 5.6 weeks holiday.
. . .

f5morg

On one of the zero hours contract I had the holiday pay was part of the hourly pay, i.e. hourly rate plus a little more on top, perhaps because it is hard to calculate any other way

General_Grant

f5morg said:

On one of the zero hours contract I had the holiday pay was part of the hourly pay, i.e. hourly rate plus a little more on top, perhaps because it is hard to calculate any other way

That is what is known as "rolled-up" holiday pay - ie holiday pay is rolled up into the hourly rate.
Perhaps your zero hours contract was some years ago as that has not been lawful for a long time.

f5morg

General_Grant said:

f5morg said:

On one of the zero hours contract I had the holiday pay was part of the hourly pay, i.e. hourly rate plus a little more on top, perhaps because it is hard to calculate any other way

That is what is known as "rolled-up" holiday pay - ie holiday pay is rolled up into the hourly rate.
Perhaps your zero hours contract was some years ago as that has not been lawful for a long time.

Interesting...no, it was actually very recent. Here is the exact wording in contract. It was zero hours.
"You will be paid only for hours actually worked at the rate of £12.11 per hour. This amount will be made up of £10.81 per hour of basic pay and £1.30 per hour of holiday pay"
So this is illegal? Is there a website/page that details this you could link me to?