Mis sold a clocked, cat S van. Is there anything I can do?

Hamsterminator1

In March 2021 I approached a Van conversion company about how I would go about buying or converting a Van from a transporter to a Camper.  I was told that I might be in luck as there was a vehicle in the shop mid conversion up for sale.

The story of this vehicle was allegedly that it was brought in by a couple who had wanted it converted. When Covid struck, they lost their jobs and then asked the converter to sell it on for them.  The van itself had no roof due to being mid conversion, no interior, and was covered in dust in the middle of the workshop. It had also recently been resprayed, supposedly because the owner noticed a few chips in the paint and was a "perfectionist"...  It also had 15k miles on the clock and was 3 years old.

I took the vehicle on the reassurance that it was good value for money, that it would be at the front of the queue to be converted, and that I was helping poor victims of circumstance as well as the converters by taking up the project.  The sale went through via bank transfer between myself and the owner for an agreed price, without my seeing any paperwork or a registration plate.  I did ask for them, but was told they were going to be sent to the converter to be kept with the vehicle so that I could pick them up at the time.  We were in the middle of lockdown restrictions at the time and the idea of picking them up with the van didn’t seem so outlandish, although in hindsight it meant I was entirely going by the word of the 2 men I was dealing with that the van was what they said it was.

I returned to the workshop 3 months later to collect the camper. It was as expected with a decent finish and a good quality build on the interior, albeit was still quite scruffy and not well cleaned in the cab.  I put this down to them rushing it out to me for collection.

Upon request of the documents, the Converter said he thought I had them already.  I said he should have them.  He made a call to the Seller (odd, I thought, as he presumably hadn’t been in touch with the guy for 3 months and was now calling him casually at 1800 on a monday evening).  He was told the documents were sent to the DVLA to then be sent to me (not what I agreed either) but that they must have lost them in the post.  Not to worry though, as the original seller still had the details and the DVLA would resend them to me.  I had no way of getting home without accepting the van without rebooking a 3 hour train, so I took the vehicle on the grounds that I could tax it after I got it home once I had the documents.

When the V5C logbook finally did come through, sent from the DVLA themselves, there were a number of oddities on it I hadn’t expected.  One was that it had had 2 previous change of owners- one dated when the V5C was sent out to me, and one from March when I initially bought it.  I had been told the van belonged to a carpet fitter before it belonged to the seller who gave it to me.  According to this document it had only belonged to him and myself.

The second big issue was that the vehicle was Cat-S.  This is when the penny finally dropped.  I ran a background check on the vehicle and have subsequently found the following information:

• It was previously found at auction as a Cat-S vehicle in early 2020.

• Pictures show the damage- it appears to have been side swiped so much of the vehicle was in fact undamaged (small consolation here)

• It had a mileage in excess of 50000mi, while I bought it with 15000.

• Elements of the van I had been told were put on in the conversion shop as a temporary measure were in fact clearly on the vehicle at Auction (cable ties holding on plastic hubcaps).  I now know that the converter has lied to me about that and so highly suspect he knows as much about the Van’s past as the Seller.

I have had it MOTd and passed with no issue, and I have had it inspected by an engineer as a post purchase inspection.  This turned up no major issues other than clear evidence of panel changes and the respray.

My main problem with the van as it stands is its murky past, and it’s loss of value.  I have been told to expect to wipe at least 30% off the van for resale, and that’s before considering the clocking issue, which as far as I’ve discovered suggests the vehicle cannot be sold without me disclosing the true mileage- which would essentially be a best guess based on what it was at auction vs how much I’ve driven it.  This is considering I could even sell it if I wanted to.  

Frustratingly, the vehicle is likely in quite a good condition despite the crash- but tampering with it as they have has made it worth far less than if they had simply been honest.

Questions:

1. Can I find out who bought the vehicle from Auction and potentially pin the clocking on the seller, threatening legal action there?
2. If the seller is the only person who owned the vehicle before I did, is he defacto guilty of the mileage change?  Would there even be any benefit to me of trying to charge him with selling to me in a clocked state (an offence)?
3. Is there any way to track where the vehicle may have been repaired subsequently?
4. In a private sale the seller is not required by law to disclose that it is Cat-S, only to tell the truth if asked (seems ridiculous to me). If the converter is a van dealership however and he both put me in touch with the seller and facilitated the sale, does he have any liability here?
5. Why does my V5C say that the vehicle changed hands in March and again in June, yet I bought it in March? Is this because the V5C was resent to me and that counts as a change of ownership?
6. Do I have any angle on trading standards with the conversion company?  Even if only to threaten them with investigation?  I have tracked down both the seller and company owner on fb and know they are friends, despite telling me they didn’t know eachother.  This isn’t a crime of course but it does paint a picture of a potential scam which is going on that threatens other naïve customers further down the line.

AdrianC

What due diligence did you do before agreeing to buy?

Did you HPI it? Did you see any service history? Did you see the V5C?

As far as the mileage goes, changing the displayed mileage is not illegal. What IS is using that fact to get more for it.
Did the difference make any difference to the price you paid? Probably not.
So long as you're open when you sell it, there's no issue.

angrycrow

Well it's certainly a messy situation to untangle. As I read it from what you have said there are two separate transactions here.

Transaction 1, The converter introduced you to somebody who had a van for sale that was partially dismantled ready for conversion to a motor home. You arranged with the van owner to buy the van as a private sale. You did not have the registration and did not undertake any enquiries as to the providence of the van before agreeing to buy it.

Transaction 2, You instructed the converter to convert your newly purchased van into a camper van. These works were completed and paid for and are of an satisfactory quality.

All your issues arise as a result of transaction 1. If you had asked the seller the question about previous write off and they knew it was a cat s and lied you would have some legal come back against them. Likely remedy would be a refund of the amount you overpaid. On a cat s 25% to 30% sounds about right. This would be based on the pre conversion value not the post conversion value. What did you pay compared to market value. 

Is the auction listing the only evidence of the higher mileage. The auction evidence would need to be pretty compelling given how often salvage auction listing use estimated readings or simply get them wrong. This is common due to flat batteries. Are there service records or mot history to verify which mileage is correct.

Best advise I can give is to resolve what the correct mileage was, dealer may be able to confirm by reading the Ecu. Once you know the true mileage age enjoy using your new camper.

When it comes time to sell you will either know the mileage is correct or you declare that due to a repair the real mileage is 35000 higher than that shown. In this way you commit no offence. 

Herzlos

I suspect that the conversion place bought it in March 2021 so became the owner, after it was written off in 2020. It's possible it's been in a salvage yard for a while due to covid.

I suspect that the story is mostly true; they bought a salvage van to do up (because the demand for vans is huge at the moment) and you were the first one to ask about it. The story about the couple is obviously nonsense but sales patter. The mileage and cat S are more significant.

Who did you pay for the van? If it was the conversion company as a business to personal transaction, then you should be able to take it back to them for not declaring the write off, but you've had it a while so it could be a battle. 

How much do you think the value is affected? Are you happy with the van?

My biggest concern is the damage - it would have taken a lot to write off a 2 year old van, presumably the side swipe explains why the side was taken off.

sevenhills

Hamsterminator1 said:

It also had 15k miles on the clock and was 3 years old.

• It was previously found at auction as a Cat-S vehicle in early 2020.

• It had a mileage in excess of 50000mi, while I bought it with 15000.
  

Have you checked to see if it's the same van, VIN and engine numbers? I don't think the milage change of a 3 year old camper van would greatly affect its value and

jimjames

What does the mileage say on the service history? Problem with a 3 year old vehicle is that no MOT will have taken place to verify the mileage each year

Hamsterminator1

So, addressing a few points mentioned here.

Did I do checks before buying? No. Why? Because this was my second ever vehicle purchase, the first of which had zero issues, and I simply had never heard of the term HPI check or that buying a vehicle through private sale has next to no protection for the buyer.  Unsurprisingly enough, these are subjects you become far more aware of after you’ve been burned.  However, saying in essence “serves you right” is the kind of apathetic response that scammers love, because it shifts the blame onto the victim.  I’m willing to accept I have made a huge mistake here, and I will live with those consequences. However I would rather not sit by and watch others make the same mistakes I have if possible.

Onto the issue itself.

The van works. The damage sustained (I had to discover this myself from auction history pictures) seems to have been to the bodywork above the axles and from the drivers side door all the way back to the rear wheel arch.  As bad as it looked, I’m actually quite relieved as I think it was mostly cosmetic.  The repair work they’ve done looks a bit slapdash as my AA inspector subsequently pointed out to me, but there are no glaring issues to safety etc.  The insurance company may have written it off, but I’ve been told that isn’t necessarily an indication of a major issue- only that they deemed it uneconomical to repair.

A few searches for a 3 year old van with ~60k miles shows vehicles which cost about 22k- which is what I paid. When you factor in the Cat S, we can knock off about 30%, which would mean I’ve lost about 7k.  This is irritating, but not worth crying about in the grand scheme of things.

The issue is that if the van has been clocked, and I have a picture of the mileage at auction, as well as two RMI checks showing 20k and 40k during its previous life which would tally with that, then I am committing an offence selling that vehicle on (as I understand it).  It is also true that they committed an offence by selling it on to me.
Yes, you can change the mileage on a vehicle legally, but you must declare the true mileage when you come to selling it on.  More practically If the timing belt goes because I haven’t had it replaced, I lose the van.

The other issue I have is that I insured the vehicle as it was sold to me.  As I only discovered it was Cat S last week, that insurance is invalidated.  My latest panic is whether or not the insurers will even accept the fact that it is cat S. 

I am fairly certain I will have to keep the vehicle and live with my mistake. If the van works, all I have lost is value when it comes to sell I on at the end of its life, and potentially have a vehicle I cannot insure.

I am fairly sure that the only relatively concrete complaint I have is the clocking issue.  The rest is as much my responsibility as it is theirs.  If that is the case I have to decide what I have to gain by reporting it, if its worth the trouble, and who to speak to about it.

AdrianC

Hamsterminator1 said:

Did I do checks before buying? No. Why? Because this was my second ever vehicle purchase, the first of which had zero issues, and I simply had never heard of the term HPI check or that buying a vehicle through private sale has next to no protection for the buyer.

EVERY SINGLE "how to buy a vehicle" guide will spell this out.

Whether your purchase was "private" is another question, though, since you bought it off somebody converting vans in the line of their business.

However, saying in essence “serves you right” is the kind of apathetic response that scammers love, because it shifts the blame onto the victim.  I’m willing to accept I have made a huge mistake here, and I will live with those consequences. However I would rather not sit by and watch others make the same mistakes I have if possible.

So perhaps the solution is to raise awareness of the importance of doing basic due diligence?

Onto the issue itself.

The van works. The damage sustained (I had to discover this myself from auction history pictures) seems to have been to the bodywork above the axles and from the drivers side door all the way back to the rear wheel arch.  As bad as it looked, I’m actually quite relieved as I think it was mostly cosmetic.  The repair work they’ve done looks a bit slapdash as my AA inspector subsequently pointed out to me, but there are no glaring issues to safety etc.  The insurance company may have written it off, but I’ve been told that isn’t necessarily an indication of a major issue- only that they deemed it uneconomical to repair.

Cat N is non-structural damage which would is uneconomical to repair.
Cat S is structural damage which is uneconomical to repair.
The write-off categories were changed from C/D (C - damage above value, D - damage below but opted not to repair) in 2017 precisely because they were just about the numbers, nothing about the actual severity.

The issue is that if the van has been clocked, and I have a picture of the mileage at auction, as well as two RMI checks showing 20k and 40k during its previous life which would tally with that, then I am committing an offence selling that vehicle on (as I understand it).
...
Yes, you can change the mileage on a vehicle legally, but you must declare the true mileage when you come to selling it on.

No.

All you need to do is be clear when you sell that the mileage is not correct to the best of your knowledge, and sell it for a price in line with what you believe the true mileage to be.

More practically If the timing belt goes because I haven’t had it replaced, I lose the van.

So change it in line with what you believe the true mileage to be...

Chances are that it'll become due on time before mileage, anyway, unless you're daily-using it.

The other issue I have is that I insured the vehicle as it was sold to me.  As I only discovered it was Cat S last week, that insurance is invalidated.

Why on earth would it be?

Insurers don't ask about that status on quoting, because they know from the plate.

My latest panic is whether or not the insurers will even accept the fact that it is cat S.

Why one earth wouldn't they?

All that will happen is that, in the event of a write-off, the value of a CatS vehicle will be paid out, not a "clean" one.