Refund request to Dutch based company

JoeSaponic

user1977 said:

JoeSaponic said:

Hunyani_Flight_825 said:

If its just a photo, you can take acceptable ones (passport) on your mobile phone nowadays.

Possibly, but I would also query why they would want one. It isn't as if we need to meet or anything. It seems arbitrary and invasive to me.

Or it could be a reasonable anti-fraud measure, to verify who their customer is. And perhaps is normal in the Netherlands (where the locals don't have the problem of not having photo ID).

That's a point, User1977, and a good one.

They've just been in touch as it happens (it's the Peaceful Pill organisation, an offshoot of Exit International). I've been granted a 'partial' refund. This two-year subscription cost me $95. They're giving me $80.

The email says they issued, or reissued a login and password and sent it to me 27th June. I got no such communication. It also says they issued a new password and login this afternoon and sent it to me. I didn't get that either.

Frankly I consider a partial refund an outrage and suspect something fishy. They ignore emails, denying me access to the very thing I've paid for, then deduct a percentage in 'costs' for pressing a button to give back what isn't theirs anyway (since I never received the goods).

The justification is that a partial reimbursement is in line with the terms I agreed to when taking out the subscription, but this seems equally spurious (at least to me). Here are the refund criteria:

https://www.peacefulpillhandbook.com/store/tos/

REFUND POLICY

The Peaceful Pill eHandbook cannot be returned for refund after user access has been recorded. (I would understand perfectly if I'd logged in even for a moment. I didn't. I never had the means.)

If a subscription is purchased in error (eg. the purchaser is under 50 years) a maximum refund of USD$80 will be available, allowing for handling and processing fees. (Doesn't apply)

A refund cannot be requested following customer notification that a pirate copy has been obtained (illegally). (Doesn't apply)

If a purchased eHandbook appears to have a technical issue, please email sales@peacefulpilhandbook.com for tech support. (Doesn't apply)

These Terms of Use are governed by the laws in force in the Netherlands, and you irrevocably and unconditionally submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of the Netherlands, and any courts which may hear appeals from those courts.

Exit International USA reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, modify, add, or delete portions of these Terms of Use at any time by posting the changes to these terms and conditions on the Service at this Website (maybe this?)

Indemnification: You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Exit International USA and its affiliates and their respective directors, officers, employees and agents from and against any and all claims, actions, demands, damages, costs, liabilities, losses and expenses (including reasonable attorneys’ fees) arising out of your use of the Website.

lincroft1710

It will be far simpler just to take the $80 partial refund rather than trying to go through Dutch courts for what will in effect only be $15

Manxman_in_exile

But it says on the T&Cs that you have linked to:

     " You will [my emphasis] supply, on request, government issued photo ID to enable Exit to verify your identity".

To me that is not optional - it's something you agreed to do when you went ahead with the subscription.  If you were not in a position to offer such ID, if requested, you should not have proceeded.  

I think you're lucky they've offered you $80.   No idea why you suspect something "fishy"...

Pollycat

JoeSaponic said:

I haven't a link to the relevant page off hand but will post if possible when less busy. Whether they insisted on a photograph and I misinterpreted the instructions is neither here nor there really of course. They have my money and I haven't access to what I paid for so a refund remains the only option - unless they're a dodgier outfit than I gave them credit for.

I think it's very much here and there.

As per the response below:

Manxman_in_exile said:

But it says on the T&Cs that you have linked to:

     " You will [my emphasis] supply, on request, government issued photo ID to enable Exit to verify your identity".

To me that is not optional - it's something you agreed to do when you went ahead with the subscription.  If you were not in a position to offer such ID, if requested, you should not have proceeded.  

I think you're lucky they've offered you $80.   No idea why you suspect something "fishy"...

born_again

@JoeSaponic

Checked your junk/spam folders?

JoeSaponic

Manxman_in_exile said:

But it says on the T&Cs that you have linked to:

     " You will [my emphasis] supply, on request, government issued photo ID to enable Exit to verify your identity".

To me that is not optional - it's something you agreed to do when you went ahead with the subscription.  If you were not in a position to offer such ID, if requested, you should not have proceeded.  

I think you're lucky they've offered you $80.   No idea why you suspect something "fishy"...

You misunderstand the sentence you quote, such is the eagerness to find fault and look clever. Unfortunately the phrase you want at this juncture Manxman doesn't actually help your case: 'will supply on request'. But you see it wasn't requested - not until AFTER I signed up, so not proceeding is another irrelevance. It wasn't compulsory, and whatever you think I should be grateful for... well such is the age of unquestioning servility we inhabit I suppose.

born_again said:

@JoeSaponic

Checked your junk/spam folders?

Yes I checked all that. Thanks.

Pollycat said:

JoeSaponic said:

I haven't a link to the relevant page off hand but will post if possible when less busy. Whether they insisted on a photograph and I misinterpreted the instructions is neither here nor there really of course. They have my money and I haven't access to what I paid for so a refund remains the only option - unless they're a dodgier outfit than I gave them credit for.

I think it's very much here and there.

As per the response below:

Manxman_in_exile said:

But it says on the T&Cs that you have linked to:

     " You will [my emphasis] supply, on request, government issued photo ID to enable Exit to verify your identity".

To me that is not optional - it's something you agreed to do when you went ahead with the subscription.  If you were not in a position to offer such ID, if requested, you should not have proceeded.  

I think you're lucky they've offered you $80.   No idea why you suspect something "fishy"...

You cannot withhold goods and services that have been lawfully purchased and keep the money. It's called theft, in Holland and indeed elsewhere in the world.

Once again the photograph was NOT compulsory. It was provisional - conditional if you will, devised as an additional layer of what they presumably considered security to apply only only on request, if they felt the need for it. They asked for the photograph AFTER I signed up. Since we know that what is compulsory isn't optional, it means that if they sent me a login and password on both 27th June and again today as they claim, long after I'd explained why I couldn't comply, it couldn't have been compulsory in the first place. That's because it wasn't.

Thank you all. You've been terrifically helpful and I'm grateful.

Manxman_in_exile

JoeSaponic said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

But it says on the T&Cs that you have linked to:

     " You will [my emphasis] supply, on request, government issued photo ID to enable Exit to verify your identity".

To me that is not optional - it's something you agreed to do when you went ahead with the subscription.  If you were not in a position to offer such ID, if requested, you should not have proceeded.  

I think you're lucky they've offered you $80.   No idea why you suspect something "fishy"...

You misunderstand the sentence you quote, such is the eagerness to find fault and look clever. Unfortunately the phrase you want at this juncture Manxman doesn't actually help your case: 'will supply on request'. But you see it wasn't requested - not until AFTER I signed up, so not proceeding is another irrelevance. It wasn't compulsory, and whatever you think I should be grateful for... well such is the age of unquestioning servility we inhabit I suppose.

Eh?  The meaning of that sentence is quite clear to anyone who can understand the English language!  (Or isn't being deliberately perverse).

What it means is that if (or indeed when) they request govt issued photo ID from you, you HAVE to provide it, otherwise you are in breach of your contract terms.

So what has happened?  You've signed up to those terms and conditions - even though you knew you couldn't fulfill them - in the vain hope that they wouldn't ask.  They have asked so you are in breach of contract because you cannot provide the required ID.  And it doesn't matter that they didn't ask you before you signed up.

So rather than your frankly patronising and insulting comments about "unquestioning servility", I suggest you grab the offered £80 with both hands and forget your paranoid conspiracy twaddle about something being "fishy".

JoeSaponic

So here’s a summary if I've failed to clarity things to anyone's satisfaction:

1) I signed up with no indication I would be asked for a photograph - only that I night be - but that any I do upload has to be ‘official’, from a documented source, and not just any random head-and-shoulders. I couldn’t supply one of these but it is perfectly reasonable to take one’s chances in the absence of direct compulsion and this is what I did. Alternatively I would  explain and hope they would understand or simply cancel and get a refund if they didn’t. They did understand in the event, since they claim to have sent me replacement details without my fulfilling the extra requirements.

2) There was no indication even AFTER I signed up that I needed to upload a photograph. No communication at all in fact. They only mentioned a picture when I complained after two weeks of silence on their part that I was still unable to access the site. I had the impression then - and now - that the picture business was an excuse (much like the replacement sign-in details they say they sent 27th June and again yesterday, which I didn’t believe, before actually blaming my ISP for 'blocking' their emails, which is nonsense of course or they wouldn't be getting through now).

3) Again, and for the last time, all this is neither here nor there, that is to say of secondary importance to the fact that I paid for goods and services that were not supplied. Please read that again. I had no access to the site of any kind, so any claim I had compromised the user agreement is a plain lie since even attempted logins can be tracked.

You can make up rules as you go along, and companies do, but confiscating money as ‘costs’ with no good reason - and this company has NO good reason - is defrauding customers.

I don't think I can reasonably add anything further so my thanks once again to all who’ve chipped in. Your privilege of course if you disagree. We’ll beg to differ and leave it at that.

Thanks again.

Manxman_in_exile

Here's a more accurate summary so that other readers can understand:

Manxman_in_exile said:

...The meaning of that sentence is quite clear to anyone who can understand the English language!  (Or isn't being deliberately perverse).

What it means is that if (or indeed when) they request govt issued photo ID from you, you HAVE to provide it, otherwise you are in breach of your contract terms.

So what has happened?  You've signed up to those terms and conditions - even though you knew you couldn't fulfill them - in the vain hope that they wouldn't ask.  They have asked so you are in breach of contract because you cannot provide the required ID.  And it doesn't matter that they didn't ask you before you signed up...

You were, however, correct when you said this:

JoeSaponic said:

...I don't think I can reasonably add anything further...

And it was also true before you made that post...

Ditzy_Mitzy

If you really want the damn thing, @JoeSaponic, you can buy it here:

Peaceful Pill Handbook 2021 Amazon: 2021 Amazon Edition: Amazon.co.uk: Nitschke, Philip, Stewart, Fiona: 9798739653055: Books

There are no restrictions on the sales of printed books in the UK as far as I know, so it's freely available.  You seem to be getting yourself caught up in things you don't need to be caught up in, specifically this attempt to buy the book in a foreign market that restricts its distribution.