Pay CCJ or Forget or Fight...CEL

taztheman

I have drafted the following, a quick glance/review with any comments will be very welcomed.

The registered keeper address relevant to this PCN now is overseas (attachment 1 - proof of overseas address). For this (and any other) matter, only the following contact details are to be used: Post=xxx, email=xxx

Referring to the parking issue itself, i have uncovered the following after painstaking investigation :

1)      The car shown to be at the said contravention location is using the clone registration plate belonging to my car. See attachment 2 which identifies key differences between the two car. The two illustration images on the left hand side of picture were taken by the attendant/CCTV, all the remaining photos are from the actual (original) car associated to registration xxxx xxx which was registered to myself.

2)      I (the RK) is no longer resident in the UK since 18th June 2019, I had moved overseas with work and continue to be overseas. See attachment 3 (passport stamps) and attachment (ticket confirmation for outward journey)

3)      The car was sold in November 2019. See attachment 5 (DVLA notification of sale/transfer) 

I can confirm that o correspondence relating to the PCN (from CEL) or the claim (court) was ever received by the RK. Had it been, the evidence that is being supplied to CEL now would have been submitted at that time and the matter would have been closed.

From the above, the following is clear:

·         The RK was not present in the UK at the time of alleged contravention

·         The alleged car registration plate is a cloned plate which was (and may continue to be) used on a similar car criminally in Birmingham area.

·         The original car associated with xxxx xxx is clearly different specification/model and was located in XXX (the RK address)

This matter has been reported to West Midland Police (incident reference xxx – 18072021 see attachment) and DVLA (see attachment).

In light of the above, it can easily be proven that the alleged car doesn't belong to me (the RK) and there should not be a CCJ n this case. I believe the attached evidences proves this claim of mine to be correct and i trust you can see what i am saying is true. 
I see that neither party is at fault here however it is on both parties' interests to clear this up. As such, I ask you to consent to setting aside the CCJ and splitting the cost of that application to pay £50 each to cover the court fee to wipe the CCJ. I note that CEL’s Legal Team is led by a barrister, whose first duty is to the court so it is as much in CEL’s interests to set aside this defective CCJ as it is in mine. 

On this basis, i request to issue a consent order within seven days of this letter/email. Otherwise, I will be forced to apply for a contested set aside by the 1st week of August 2021. During the contested set aside, I will be pointing out this correspondence to the Judge because refusal to set aside the CCJ in the face of this clear evidence would meet the bar of vexatious and wholly unreasonable conduct.

Not to mention that I will also ask the court to grant all my costs, which will include:
* £95 to attend each hearing by phone,
* cost for time spent in investigating this matter - being overseas, this meant countless phone calls were made to the court and credit reference agencies in the UK at international calling rates, in order to understand the origin of the CCJ and enabling the investigation
* £255 for a contested set aside application (assuming i am forced into that corner by CEL).  

For clarify on my part, this PCN is not mine and therefore will not be paid, whichever set aside route CEL should choose.

Regards

Coupon-mad

You need to take one step at a time and when the DVLA say ‘write to us’ that includes email.  The DVLA data sharing complaints email is in post #5 of the NEWBIES thread. 

I think you are conflating two things by trying to prove you were abroad. I think your email gets a bit confusing due to trying to say that as well.

You have no need to do that because the car in the photos is black and a different model (with various different features) and the Police have accepted that it has cloned plates from your blue car.  You have an incident number from the Police and if you now send an email of your evidence to the DVLA data sharing complaints team you can also attach that for CEL to read. 

taztheman

an update, i wrote the below to CEL,

I write to you regarding the PCN xxxx 

The registered keeper address relevant to this PCN now is overseas (attachment 1). For this (or any other) matter, only the following contact details are to be used: 

Postal Address: xxx 

Email address:xxxx 

 

Referring to the PCN itself, I have uncovered the following after investigations: 

1. The car that is shown to be at the said location, appears to be using cloned registration plates copying my cars' registration. See attachment 2, which identifies key differences between the two cars. (Note, the two images in center are from parking attendant, all the remaining photos are from the actual car belonging to the registration xxx).  
2. The car was sold in November 2019. See attachment titled 'xxx'.  
3. No correspondence relating to the PCN (from CEL) or the claim (court) was ever received by the RK. Had it been, the exact same evidence that is being supplied to you NOW would have been submitted at that time and the matter would have been resolved. 

 From the above, the following is clear:  

• The alleged car registration plate is a clone plate which was (and may continue to be) used on a similar car criminally in alleged location of contravention. 
• The original car associated with xxx is clearly different and was located in Derby (the RK address, as per additional photos attached for your reference) 

 This matter has been reported to West Midland Police (incident reference xxx see attachment 'xxx') and DVLA (see attachment 'xxxx). 

In light of the above, it is easily proven that the alleged car doesn't belong to me (the RK) and there should not be a CCJ in this case. I believe the attached evidences proves my claim to be correct and i trust you can see what i am saying is true.  

I see that neither party is at fault here however, it is on both parties' interests to clear this up. As such, I ask you to consent to setting aside the CCJ and splitting the cost of that application to pay £50 each to cover the court fee to wipe the CCJ. I note that CEL’s Legal Team is led by a barrister, whose first duty is to the court. Therefore, it is as much in CEL’s interests to set aside this defective CCJ as it is in mine.  

On this basis, i request you to issue a consent order within seven days of this letter/email. Otherwise, I will be forced to apply for a contested set aside by the 1st week of October 2021. During the contested set aside, I will be pointing out this correspondence to the Judge because refusal to set aside the CCJ in the face of this clear evidence would meet the bar of vexatious and wholly unreasonable conduct. 

I will, (if it goes to contested set aside), also ask the court to grant all my costs, which includes: 

• £95 to attend each hearing by phone, 
• costs for time spent in investigating this matter – being overseas, this meant countless phone calls were made to the court and credit reference agencies in the UK at premium international calling rates. This was needed in order to understand the origin of the CCJ and enabling the investigation  
• £255 for a contested set aside application 

 For clarify on my part, this PCN is not mine and therefore will not be paid, whichever set aside route CEL should choose.

taztheman

Below is there response, i cant make head or tail of it, please advise as to whether they have agreed to what our request or not? The bold text doesn't make sense, i have not paid anything to anyone yet.

'We refer to your recent correspondence.

Your details were obtained from the Driver & Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) on 19 August 2019. Regulation 27 of the Road Vehicles Regulations & Licensing Regulations 2002 requires the DVLA to release information from its register to companies that demonstrate a reasonable cause to have the information made available to them. The DVLA provided your previous address (xxxx). You have not provided any evidence from the DVLA which indicates that the DVLA were notified that you changed address, nor have you confirmed when you moved abroad.

Numerous letters including, but not limited to, the PCN, PCN Reminder and letter before action were sent to you at your previous address, however, as the debt remained outstanding, we were left with no alternative but to commence legal proceedings. As you are aware, a County Court Judgment (CCJ) was obtained in the sum of £283.56.

The CCJ will not be removed unless an application to have the Judgment set aside is successfully made with the Court. There are particular circumstances in which the Court may set aside judgement – the main reason is where it appears to the Court that there is a good reason for setting aside Judgment. An example of a good reason is that you did not receive the claim form and were therefore unaware of the claim. The fact that you have subsequently settled the Judgment debt is not ordinarily a good enough reason to allow the Court to set aside Judgment.

We invite you to confirm when you moved address and notified the DVLA of such. Our position is that we will agree to consent to the removal of the Judgment obtained against you. We will provide you with a draft Consent order which you can file with the County Court Business Centre (CCBC). You will need to sign and date the draft Consent Order and then send it by post/email to the CCBC with the filing fee of £100. We do not agree to contribute towards the costs of this application. A District Judge at the CCBC will then make a decision regarding the removal of the judgment when reviewing your application.

Please note that removal of the Judgment is not automatically granted. The outcome of your application is at the discretion of a District Judge or a court appointed Legal Advisor.

If you are in any doubt about the content of this letter, you should seek independent legal advice.

Yours faithfully,'

Redx

They are agreeing to a consent order where you foot the bill , they won't fund any of it. ! It's that simple

They are also saying that a judge may not grant the set aside , so it's at your risk , so if it's not granted , tough

You pays the money and take your chances , although it's likely that it will be rubber stamped providing that you prove the facts you have already mentioned

They are telling you to obtain legal advice if you dont understand any of it , they are correct , it's your job to do so if you think it is necessary. This forum ( mse ) does not allow you to be given legal advice , just opinions )

Your alternative is a contested set aside , a lot more cost that they won't want to pay for , plus it would bring the original claim back , if it was granted , which you may win , or might not

So it's up to you , if you want to try for a with consent set aside , funded by you , do so ( or consider the difficult alternative )

So you now have my untrained personal opinion about the above ( as with most of the non legally trained members here , several of which have replied )

Coupon-mad

They are indeed consenting which means you'd pay £100 fee to the court and hope the Judge dealing with the papers doesn't put a spanner in the works:

They also want you to show proof of moving abroad which is fair enough, otherwise everyone could say they now live in The back of beyond!

Our position is that we will agree to consent to the removal of the Judgment obtained against you. We will provide you with a draft Consent order which you can file with the County Court Business Centre (CCBC).

We invite you to confirm when you moved address and notified the DVLA of such.

taztheman

Coupon-mad said:

They are indeed consenting which means you'd pay £100 fee to the court and hope the Judge dealing with the papers doesn't put a spanner in the works:

They also want you to show proof of moving abroad which is fair enough, otherwise everyone could say they now live in The back of beyond!

Our position is that we will agree to consent to the removal of the Judgment obtained against you. We will provide you with a draft Consent order which you can file with the County Court Business Centre (CCBC).

We invite you to confirm when you moved address and notified the DVLA of such.

So basically they have agreed to our request of consenting to set aside except for paying the 50% of fee meaning i pay the full 100%? Isn't this what we asked for (except for splitting of costs)? I dont mind paying the 100 pounds if it gets the CCJ removed.

I did provide them with proof of current overseas address. I didn't notify the DVLA of change of address as Nov 2019 i sold the car and Dec 2020 i moved abroad. I suppose to confirm the date of moving i can supply to them the employment letter (which states start of employment) and also can supply overseas visa letter.

So assuming above is good to proceed, i shall ask CEL to proceed with supplying me with draft consent order?  

Coupon-mad

Yes if you are happy to pay £100 for a N244 application for set aside with consent, reply and say yes, but ask that the draft order takes note that both parties are satisfied from evidence seen by both that this was a cloned numberplate issue and the incident did not involve the Defendant's car.

That should help the Judge to tick the boxes.

Tell CEL that you had no need to notify the DVLA that you moved abroad because your car was sold and had no outstanding PCNs so there was never a need for the DVLA to change address data against that vehicle.

However, in the interests of proving that your permanent domicile is is abroad, you attach evidence of employment and in fact you are renting/staying with friends (or whatever) so have no utility bill, however this email address and your address abroad are ways to contact you. 

Given you are not a person who ever owed any money to CEL, never used one of their car parks, never would, and were never in breach, it is perfectly acceptable that you expect not to be treated like some sort of rogue motorist who has to prove to a random private parking firm whether they told the DVLA when they moved abroad, you expect no more questioning and a swift conclusion with an acceptable draft Order and consent terms that specifically alert the court to the fact this was a cloned car situation and not your PCN at all.

Finally, given this is not your parking charge you require CEL to erase all your data as soon as they hear that the CCJ has been set aside.

taztheman

Coupon-mad said:

Yes if you are happy to pay £100 for a N244 application for set aside with consent,

Well i guess they have rejected the 50-50 split, i dont know whether there is mileage in me forcing them to accept the two way split? I just want the CCJ to be removed and for 50 pounds, i would not want to let this drag any longer especially being overseas. Had i been residing in UK things would have been different.

Coupon-mad

Why not just ignore it though, or will an old CCJ matter soon if you are coming back to the UK?

Personally, I think now that they KNOW this was a cloned vehicle and you live abroad, you can tell them to go swivel if you want.