Pay CCJ or Forget or Fight...CEL

taztheman

Hi,

I have summarised my situation below and would appreciate advice on the matter. I am a non-UK resident (since Jun 2019), I have gathered all the info remotely through SAR from CEL and the court. I may return to the UK within 5 years or may not, it just depends on variety of other factors but nevertheless i like to have my record clean.

* Left UK (on my own initially) for work overseas: June 2019
* Date of parking incident: 18/08/19 (we know its a matter of cloned plates, however proving is hard based on photographic evidence alone, see photos/post at bottom of page here 
   https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6272388/ccj-added-on-nov-2020-that-i-dont-recognise/p7 
* PCN issue date: 22/08/19
* PCN reminder: 25/09/19
* Car sold: November 2019
* Left UK for good (with remaining family): December 2019 (no knowledge of PCN as we don't recall receiving any of the 3 letters from CEL, all post that was received was reviewed until the date of departure from the UK, the PCN or any matter relating to the debt would not have been ignored, not a chance)
* Letter before action (from CEL): 12/03/20
* Final reminder (from CEL): 21/07/20
* Claim proceeding from court: 01/10/20
* CCJ issued: 10/11/20
* Only became aware of PCN during casual look of credit report and spotted CCJ and started on the fact finding mission.

D_P_Dance

Any advice you receive here would be subjective.  Besides, we are not in possession of all the evidence.  Only you know what the best course of action is for you.

Umkomaas

Why aren't you simply adding this query to your lengthy and detailed original thread.  The background is important and no one will be jumping back and to between threads and the danger is you're going to be asked questions already raised. 

Please copy and paste your query above into your original thread and let this one die.

taztheman

Umkomaas said:

Why aren't you simply adding this query to your lengthy and detailed original thread.  The background is important and no one will be jumping back and to between threads and the danger is you're going to be asked questions already raised. 

Please copy and paste your query above into your original thread and let this one die.

I have been asked few times on the original thread to post this issue in Parking forum and i am just doing that. 

That Forum discussed matters relating to credit i.e. CCJ in my case. I have the advice on that aspect. 

I am posting in this section to understand the aspects of PCN, with the additional information. I hope this clarifies.

taztheman

D_P_Dance said:

Any advice you receive here would be subjective.  Besides, we are not in possession of all the evidence.  Only you know what the best course of action is for you.

Trust me, If i knew i would not be asking the question i am asking.

What i would like to know is that whether there is anything i can do to challenge/reverse this 2 year old PCN considering the cloned plates, circumstances of moving abroad, Covid, etc.). If yes what is the mechanism, do i go back to CEL/POPLA etc.

Hope this clarifies the question. Happy to answer any questions you may have.

Umkomaas

I've scanned your previous thread and now realise it was on the credit forum you were getting advice (some not so helpful!). Where we are now is probably more relevant to the credit forum than the parking forum, as anything much to do with parking has all but disappeared, save as to say that the NEWBIES FAQ Announcement, second post, gives you your options and processes to make an application to the courts for a set aside. Read that advice then see if you want to take it further. 

I note your assertion that your plates were cloned (did you report to the police and receive a crime reference number?) and I'm not doubting the possibility that that happened - especially looking at the very different areas you've highlighted on the two cars - although the PencilSharpener thinks a 'quick makeover' has been undertaken to avoid a £100 PCN (👓).  The only other possibility (we see vanishingly few real cases of cloning) is that there has been a misread of the VRM on the car, or maybe bits of tape applied to, for example, make a 'P' look line a 'R'. 

Have a think about the set aside.  There are no parking related routes available to you (like appealing to CEL - they've got what they want, or to POPLA, both of those ships sailed within a month of the original PCN issue date). 

taztheman

Umkomaas said:

I've scanned your previous thread and now realise it was on the credit forum you were getting advice (some not so helpful!). 

Could not agree more. I found some of the posts to be quite offensive including the one about 'make over' 

Umkomaas said:

Have a think about the set aside.  There are no parking related routes available to you (like appealing to CEL - they've got what they want, or to POPLA, both of those ships sailed within a month of the original PCN issue date). 

It seems to be the only option left on the cards, knowing that any chance of PCN reversal is gone.

Coupon-mad

1. Report this to the Police and get an Incident number. You will not get a crime number as cloned plates are not a crime against you, albeit they are a crime generally. But not against you. But you can get an incident number. 

2.  Email the DVLA all your evidence and tell them the black car (because the colour photos show the PCN was issued to a black car) has cloned plates and you want the DVLA to note this and not give your data out if any reports are made of parking/speeding by the driver of the cloned black car.   I also saw a difference in the model type under the word YARIS at the back - theirs is a different model.  Ask the DVLA to urgently confirm they have taken this on board.

3.  Email the parking firm with your evidence, and the Police incident number and the DVLA’s reply.  Tell them that you live abroad now and your address is not the UK address so they must erase that address and not use it for replies.  Tell them to respond only by email or to your foreign address (provide that of course). 

4. Tell the PPC that this is clearly not your car and they should not have a CCJ n this case and you trust they can see what you are saying is true. As such, you ask them to consent to setting aside the CCJ and splitting the cost of that application to pay £50 each to cover the court fee to wipe the CCJ.  Neither party is at fault but it is in both parties’ interests to clear this up and you note that CEL’s Legal Team is led by a barrister, whose first duty is to the court so it is as much in CEL’s interests to set aside this defective CCJ as it is in yours. 

5.  Ask them for a consent order on that basis within seven days or you will apply for a contested set aside by the end of July, and will point out this correspondence to the Judge because refusal to set aside the CCJ in the face of this clear evidence would meet the bar of vexatious and wholly unreasonable conduct.  The consent Order and 50/50 court fee agreement, and of course cancelling the PCN (and erasing your data afterwards) has value to them because you will otherwise ask the court to grant all your costs, including £95 to attend each hearing by phone and £255 for a contested set aside application if CEL force you into that corner.  To be clear, the PCNis not yours and will not be paid, whichever set aside route CEL choose.

taztheman

Coupon-mad said:

1. Report this to the Police and get an Incident number. You will not get a crime number as cloned plates are not a crime against you, albeit they are a crime generally. But not against you. But you can get an incident number. 

2.  Email the DVLA all your evidence and tell them the black car (because the colour photos show the PCN was issued to a black car) has cloned plates and you want the DVLA to note this and not give your data out if any reports are made of parking/speeding by the driver of the cloned black car.   I also saw a difference in the model type under the word YARIS at the back - theirs is a different model.  Ask the DVLA to urgently confirm they have taken this on board.

3.  Email the parking firm with your evidence, and the Police incident number and the DVLA’s reply.  Tell them that you live abroad now and your address is not the UK address so they must erase that address and not use it for replies.  Tell them to respond only by email or to your foreign address (provide that of course). 

4. Tell the PPC that this is clearly not your car and they should not have a CCJ n this case and you trust they can see what you are saying is true. As such, you ask them to consent to setting aside the CCJ and splitting the cost of that application to pay £50 each to cover the court fee to wipe the CCJ.  Neither party is at fault but it is on both parties’ interests to clear this up and you note that CEL’s Legal Team is led by a barrister, whose first duty is to the court so it is as much in CEL’s interests to set aside this defective CCJ as it is in yours. 

5.  Ask them for a consent order on that basis within seven days or you will apply for a contested set aside by the end of July, and will point out this correspondence to the Judge because refusal to set aside the CCJ in the face of this clear evidence would meet the bar of vexatious and wholly unreasonable conduct.  The consent Order and 50/50 court fee agreement, and of course cancelling the PCN (and erasing your data afterwards) has value to them because you will otherwise ask the court to grant all your costs, including £95 to attend each hearing by phone and £255 for a contested set aside application if CEL force you into that corner.  To be clear, the PCNis not yours and will not be paid, whichever set aside route CEL choose.

Ok then, i have the incident number from police. However DVLA insists that i write to them on this matter. So not sure how to pursue DVLA aspect from overseas. I do have an email response with a reference number from DVLA, which says that for cloned plate matters, i need to write to them etc. 

For points 4 and 5, the only email addresses i have for CEL are following, would emailing to these work or should there be another email id?
dataprotectionofficer@ce-service.co.uk
legal@ce-service.co.uk

Another thing that came to my mind whilst browsing the set aside posts on this forum was, wouldn't it be a good evidence to use  against CEL or for set aside, that i was out of country at the time of PCN incident and that i am not the driver of the said car (even though i was the RK, it was only used by my wife). This can be proved by date of entry and exit on my passport.

Le_Kirk

office@ce-service.co.uk

Legal3@ce-service.co.uk

dataprotectionofficer@ce-service.co.uk

These have proved useful in the past. Obviously only use the DPO for SAR or Data Rectification Notice.

Castle

taztheman said:

Another thing that came to my mind whilst browsing the set aside posts on this forum was, wouldn't it be a good evidence to use  against CEL or for set aside, that i was out of country at the time of PCN incident and that i am not the driver of the said car (even though i was the RK, it was only used by my wife). This can be proved by date of entry and exit on my passport.

If you were out of the country then somebody else was "keeping" your car and that makes them, the "Keeper" for the purposes of POFA2012.