SEISS Claim Question 'do you intend to keep trading in 2021 to 2022'

Jane_Holmes

One of the questions in the 4 SEISS claim forms was 'do you intend to keep trading in 2021 to 2022'
My honest answer on all four claims was 'yes'. However, my sole-trader work had now trickled to nothing and I feel I will have to take a PAYE job. 

Am I likely to be penalised? My intention was always to keep trading but sadly this is now unlikely to be possible. 

Grumpy_chap

Jane_Holmes said:

One of the questions in the 4 SEISS claim forms was 'do you intend to keep trading in 2021 to 2022'
My honest answer on all four claims was 'yes'. However, my sole-trader work had now trickled to nothing and I feel I will have to take a PAYE job. 

Am I likely to be penalised? My intention was always to keep trading but sadly this is now unlikely to be possible. 

If you answered honestly as at the time of making then statement, then that is your intent.  Intent at that time is not altered by subsequent change.

If you needed to demonstrate the intent, then what sales / marketing effort have you undertaken that would support the intent at that time being present and correct?

Jeremy535897

It depends on the facts. The rules require you "to intend to continue to carry on a trade". The wording is somewhat odd, but if, as a matter of fact, your trade (or trades) have ceased, you can't intend to "continue" to carry it on.

As to the timing of when a trade ceases, see:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim80565

justwhat

You only have to show intention. You don't have to trade / make a profit technically.  EG. if you advertise for new business and are unable to secure new business. Then you are still trading. If you buy stock / products and you are unable to sell them. You are still intending to trade.

Jeremy535897

justwhat said:

You only have to show intention. You don't have to trade / make a profit technically.  EG. if you advertise for new business and are unable to secure new business. Then you are still trading. If you buy stock / products and you are unable to sell them. You are still intending to trade.

Intending to trade is not good enough. You have to intend to continue to trade.

maxmycardagain

you can carry on being self employed without actually working/earning... (bit like a "dormant" ltd company)

maxmycardagain

Jeremy535897 said:

justwhat said:

You only have to show intention. You don't have to trade / make a profit technically.  EG. if you advertise for new business and are unable to secure new business. Then you are still trading. If you buy stock / products and you are unable to sell them. You are still intending to trade.

Intending to trade is not good enough. You have to intend to continue to trade.

They cant drag you out to work...

Jeremy535897

maxmycardagain said:

Jeremy535897 said:

justwhat said:

You only have to show intention. You don't have to trade / make a profit technically.  EG. if you advertise for new business and are unable to secure new business. Then you are still trading. If you buy stock / products and you are unable to sell them. You are still intending to trade.

Intending to trade is not good enough. You have to intend to continue to trade.

They cant drag you out to work...

No, they just don't pay the grant.

loveka

I am in the same boat. My self employment has gone to nothing due to covid (arts industry) and I can't see me getting much work at all now as some of the people who used to use my services have ceased trading. In my job you don't really market yourself, you get approached. I have my own website, I wonder if that's enough proof.

Jeremy535897

I quoted this link earlier:
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim80565

If you are interested, see Marriott v Lane:
https://library.croneri.co.uk/cch_uk/btc/1996-btc-297

You might take some heart from Marriott v Lane, as in this case, there were very clear indicators that the trade had ceased (the museum was temporarily closed, but it never reopened and its exhibits were disposed of). In your case, in the absence of any clear evidence of a cessation (such as taking on a job or other commitments that would de facto make it impossible for you to continue your business), you may be able to argue you are still trading. The website is helpful, but continuing to do whatever else you used to do if work was a bit thin would be helpful.