Help requested: Standing Charges and gas supply

QrizB

Mac9091_2 said:

Current electric spend per year is IRO £650 for daily use and heating water via electricity rather than gas.

Problem: I can't find any gas tariffs that offer a zero SC, the cheapest I can find is British Gas which would work out at £62.53 per year for nothing and I don't see there being enough of a saving switching to gas to heat the water to cover the £62.53 standing charge plus however much gas she actually ends up using.

Looking at the numbers, £50/yr on a Bulb Vari-Fair is around 3000kWh/yr @ 18.27p/kWh plus 23.6p SC/day.

If they switch some of that to gas at Bulb Vari-Fair tariff of 3.46p/kWh and 25.68p SC/day:

• 500kWh gas + 2500kWh elec = £665/yr (+£15/yr)
• 1000kWh gas + 2000kWh elec = £588/yr (-£62/yr)
• 1500kWh gas + 1500kWh elec = £512/yr (-£138/yr)
  

Turning the boiler on is likely to save money, even if it's only switched on in the colder months to provide CH.

MWT

Mac9091_2 said:

The electricity is via Bulb on a prepayment meter and the gas is DD but gets refunded as there is no change in the meter reading.

It is almost inconceivable that electricity via a pre-pay meter is a cheaper way to heat and provide hot water than a functioning gas boiler and radiators...

Reed_Richards

Mac9091_2 said:

Yes, it would be cheaper to heat the water by gas but this was discussed and calculated previously and the cost of gas and SC would outweigh the savings that would be made by just using electricity.

The only gas appliance is the boiler and there's GCH but she never uses or needs it, again this was part of the discussion about only using electricity to heat the water.

Boiler gets serviced each year as required due to it being rented and its never been capped off. 

The concern is that she is being forced now to pay a SC for something she doesn't use and if she does use gas she would still be financially worse off. Granted not by much but every saving is a saving.

I would question the maths (not to mention the logic).  In my two-person dwelling I use about 5 kWh of electricity per day to maintain a tank full of hot water.  Some of this covers water used and a fraction covers heat lost from the hot water cylinder.  I would guess that about 2 kWh per day is required just to keep the tank at temperature with no use at all but l'll assume that your friend is super-frugal with a super-insulated tank and can get away with 2 kWh per day total.

Your quoted figure of gas standing charge, if it is per year, works out at less than 18 p per day.  Lets assume gas would cost 4p per kWh so if she uses 2 kWh per day heating water the cost would be  26p per day.  The cheapest electricity tariff you can find is about 12p per kWh, your friend could easily be paying twice that.  But if we assume 12p per kWh and discount the electricity standing charge because that has to be paid anyway.  So that's 24p a day for 2 kWh.

Therefore on the basis of the most wildly optimistic assumptions about usage and electricity cost your friend can save 2p per day not using gas.      

Mac9091_2

Neil_Jones said:

Mac9091_2 said:

Yes, it would be cheaper to heat the water by gas but this was discussed and calculated previously and the cost of gas and SC would outweigh the savings that would be made by just using electricity.

The only gas appliance is the boiler and there's GCH but she never uses or needs it, again this was part of the discussion about only using electricity to heat the water.

Boiler gets serviced each year as required due to it being rented and its never been capped off. 

The concern is that she is being forced now to pay a SC for something she doesn't use and if she does use gas she would still be financially worse off. Granted not by much but every saving is a saving.

Sorry I don't quite follow.  Why is your friend not using the boiler for hot water?  Are you seriously suggesting for hot water they boil the kettle up or heat up a saucepan on the stove (presume that's electric too?) when they've got a perfectly good boiler just sitting there on a wall somewhere doing nothing?

You do realise gas is  on average a quarter of the price per unit than electricity?  It would save you boiling water up needlessly in the kettle/saucepan at some ridiculous rate when the boiler will boil what you need when you need it - washing the dishes or washing your hands or even having a shower if that's the sort you've got, though you're more likely to have an electric shower.

What does your friend do for heating in the winter?  Electric fires?  That'll cost the earth and some more.  The boiler will heat multiple rooms in one go at a far more economical rate.

No there's an electric heater for the water as well as being Gas. Redundancy in the system in case of one failing there is still going to be hot water. Thought that was a requirement now for all boilers and GCH?

I am aware of the costs of gas compared with electricity but again we went through the calculations from her previous gas usage and the amount she used showed it to be cheaper to not use the gas and therefore have to pay SC.

Heating in winter? House isn't that bad and also "puts a jumper/ dressing gown" on if its that bad. 

Mac9091_2

QrizB said:

Mac9091_2 said:

Current electric spend per year is IRO £650 for daily use and heating water via electricity rather than gas.

Problem: I can't find any gas tariffs that offer a zero SC, the cheapest I can find is British Gas which would work out at £62.53 per year for nothing and I don't see there being enough of a saving switching to gas to heat the water to cover the £62.53 standing charge plus however much gas she actually ends up using.

Looking at the numbers, £50/yr on a Bulb Vari-Fair is around 3000kWh/yr @ 18.27p/kWh plus 23.6p SC/day.

If they switch some of that to gas at Bulb Vari-Fair tariff of 3.46p/kWh and 25.68p SC/day:

• 500kWh gas + 2500kWh elec = £665/yr (+£15/yr)
• 1000kWh gas + 2000kWh elec = £588/yr (-£62/yr)
• 1500kWh gas + 1500kWh elec = £512/yr (-£138/yr)
  

Turning the boiler on is likely to save money, even if it's only switched on in the colder months to provide CH.

When we looked at the numbers initially I couldn't work out why there was so little gas usage (IIRC less than 200) but she had bills to show, since then and having a prepayment meter for the electricity I can't accurately see how much she uses, which clearly doesn't help.

Might need to get her to run a "test week" and keep a track of the figures.

Mac9091_2

MWT said:

Mac9091_2 said:

The electricity is via Bulb on a prepayment meter and the gas is DD but gets refunded as there is no change in the meter reading.

It is almost inconceivable that electricity via a pre-pay meter is a cheaper way to heat and provide hot water than a functioning gas boiler and radiators...

She uses that little that the SC would have made up the bulk of the cost for the gas, therefore by not using it there was a bit of money saving and there was less chance of her running up a debt with the attitude of "ooh I'll just pay that next week" and then forgetting to do so.

Tallerdave

When you choose to rent a place with gas & electricity you're fully aware that the supplies will have to be paid for regardless of how much use is made of them.

Basing the maths on no standing charges was always going to be a finite honeymoon period. Now that's over, gas will probably be more cost effective option for water heating.

What's puzzling is that the money being wasted on the prepay electricity deal probably far outweighs the figure of the gas standing charge.

Separate suppliers on credit accounts will be by far the most cost effective solution. 

Reed_Richards

Mac9091_2 said:

I am aware of the costs of gas compared with electricity but again we went through the calculations from her previous gas usage and the amount she used showed it to be cheaper to not use the gas and therefore have to pay SC.

But that's not actually an option.  If you have a gas meter you have to pay the standing charge (excepting special circumstances mentioned earlier that do no apply here). 

I still think your calculations must have been wrong.  Just because she very possibly pays more in gas standing charge then she pays for gas doesn't mean electricity is cheaper.  

molerat

For me 42 kWh of gas plus standing charge costs the same as 10 kWh of electricity so in a worst case scenario 25 kWh of effective heat costs the same as 10 kWh.

bagand96

Setting aside the Gas/Electricity debate for a moment. 

There is the loophole that if you don't enter a contract with a supplier, and you do not use any gas, then they can't charge you the standing charge. This may be the situation your friend was in with EON? 

If they've now moved over to EON Next and they are refusing to do this, then it might be worth making a complaint. Along the lines of the switch to EON Next was something the consumer had no choice over (was a business decision by EON) but this has disadvantaged the consumer significantly. 

Not sure if it will work, but might be worth trying.