Is selling copy/fake/counterfeit/replica goods legal?

Zinger549

Are you looking to buy or sell one of these guitars?

Jenni_D

Zinger549 said:

Are you looking to buy or sell one of these guitars?

Reading the thread - neither. It seems to be an online squabble between the OP (who thinks someone is doing something wrong) and the other person (who doesn't).

Sandtree

CKhalvashi said:

pbartlett said:

Just to be crystal clear - if you make a guitar look like a Fender, complete with Fender name etc, then you can put 14 foot neon lights above it saying "THIS IS NOT A REAL FENDER" but you still can't legally sell it.

What you CAN sell is a guitar that somewhat approximates to a Fender with a name called FENBOR 

I was just going to mention something along these lines.

I have a bag used for work in a similar design to a designer brand (but with no branding at all on it, and openly sold at about £30 with no branding in Eastern Europe, other than the style it's simply a black leather-like material bag, it was bought several years ago) and this would be fine. Putting the branding of the company it's possibly meant to resemble and charging £5-600 for it would be a problem. It's hard wearing and looks professional, this is what is required and there is no point paying £100s for something like this.

In certain Eastern European countries, gopniks will wear Abibas or Abidas (other variations are available at various markets), this is legal also, just pushing things a little more. Putting a trademarked brand name on these items definitely is not without permission of the trademark owner, at which point you're at a price point where the cheapest semichki and/or pivo simply won't cut it

No idea on copyright or trademark law in "certain eastern european countries" but in the UK copyright breach doesnt require it to go along with a trademark breach.

A total copy of a third party's design simply minus the branding is potentially going to be a copyright infringement, adding a branding thats a slight misspelling of the original brand makes it more likely to be an issue. Obviously there are lots of lawyers paid a lot of money to argue if two items are the same or different but that also makes it very expensive for brands to go after a market stall owner in Olsztyn. Hence you find large brands go after prolific infringers and the Trading Standards of the world go after the local market stalls etc and someone doing the occasional "genuine fake" or copyright infringement only may well get away with it as being too small to bother about.  

Manxman_in_exile

prowla said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

pbartlett said:

Trades Marks Act 1994 section 92

People who recreate items using registered trade marks when not authorised to do so, are committing a criminal offence under the TRADE MARKS ACT 1994.

The penalties are if prosecuted and found guilty the penalties the person may face are:

A) on summary conviction imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (£5000) or both

 on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or both.

But that is only applicable in the OP's case if "Fender" is a registered TM in this country.  I don't know if it is or not.  (Also I don't know if the 1994 Act you reference represents the current position or not).

OP - all you basically need to know is that somebody applying the "Fender" name to a guitar that is not a fender and then selling it is on very dodgy ground - full stop.  And it doesn't matter whether the guitar in question is higher or lower quality than a genuine fender. 

As I said earlier I could have quoted the relevant legislation and case law to you 40 years ago, but I have no idea what the current position is.  I am, however, confident it won't have changed much.

Thanks - yes it is a registered TM in this country.

Whilst you and I "know" it, there are some people who will not be swayed by that and will argue the point (to the extent of being abusive).

Unfortunately, without citing the actual law(s), it is just opinion and there is no full-stop .

The "some people" in this case are just idiots.  The fact they are arguing with you about it indicates to me that they know it's against the law.

Ignore them.  (And if you think appropriate, contact the local TS - not that they're likely to do much.)

prowla

Jenni_D said:

Zinger549 said:

Are you looking to buy or sell one of these guitars?

Reading the thread - neither. It seems to be an online squabble between the OP (who thinks someone is doing something wrong) and the other person (who doesn't).

Yes, but I'm also a bit fed up of searching for things on various sites and being returned fakes, so this particular instance is symptomatic rather than a one-off.

robatwork

Interesting that this page purporting to show lots of recent Limelights has lots of pictures but none of the badged headstocks

Limelight custom gallery - Classic & Cool Guitars (classicandcoolguitars.co.uk)

Just some scribbled marker pen on the rear. 

Sandtree

robatwork said:

Interesting that this page purporting to show lots of recent Limelights has lots of pictures but none of the badged headstocks

Limelight custom gallery - Classic & Cool Guitars (classicandcoolguitars.co.uk)

Just some scribbled marker pen on the rear. 

But there are others that do and the description also covers it off in some cases such as the below where they state they've applied a Fender logo and show it in the image.

https://classicandcoolguitars.co.uk/portfolio/limelight-00218-car/

Zinger549

It doesn't mention Fender in the description but you can clearly see the logo in some of the pics. 

Sandtree

Zinger549 said:

It doesn't mention Fender in the description but you can clearly see the logo in some of the pics.

So you didn't see the...

Period correct 1957 Fender Precision logo (added later)

Zinger549

Sandtree said:

Zinger549 said:

It doesn't mention Fender in the description but you can clearly see the logo in some of the pics.

So you didn't see the...

Period correct 1957 Fender Precision logo (added later)

I must have missed that. It doesn't say Fender in the title. It's a custom guitar made to look like a vintage Fender. They don't seem to be suggesting it's genuine. Fender could take action. If it went to court they judge would need to decide if they were trying to pass them off as the the real deal. If not would people know that buy looking at the description.