Is it legal for a pub to keep your card behind the bar?

ThisnotThat

Brie said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Of course they could charge it, it's classed as a "Card Not Present" transaction.  Exactly the same as if you buy something online or over the phone.

But the card is present and given the fact that there's contactless payment available a pub could just swipe the card after each round of drinks until eventually the pin is required.

It's Cardholder not present, not card not present.

If the pub swiped the card on the cardholder's behalf, without their agreement, it would be fraud and I'd hope they'd lose their merchant facilities for it.

GeordieGeorge

ThisnotThat said:

Brie said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Of course they could charge it, it's classed as a "Card Not Present" transaction.  Exactly the same as if you buy something online or over the phone.

But the card is present and given the fact that there's contactless payment available a pub could just swipe the card after each round of drinks until eventually the pin is required.

It's Cardholder not present, not card not present.

If the pub swiped the card on the cardholder's behalf, without their agreement, it would be fraud and I'd hope they'd lose their merchant facilities for it.

Fraud to take payment for the drinks a person ordered, using the card that they gave for exactly that reason?

I don’t think that you understand what fraud is. 

Penguin_

ThisnotThat said:

Brie said:

Ebe_Scrooge said:

Of course they could charge it, it's classed as a "Card Not Present" transaction.  Exactly the same as if you buy something online or over the phone.

But the card is present and given the fact that there's contactless payment available a pub could just swipe the card after each round of drinks until eventually the pin is required.

It's Cardholder not present, not card not present.

If the pub swiped the card on the cardholder's behalf, without their agreement, it would be fraud and I'd hope they'd lose their merchant facilities for it.

Well given the cardholder has left a premises where they have consumed food &/or drink & left their card to enable a tab, I would disagree. The cardholder is indeed not present & doesnt need to be to have the tab charged to their card.

WillPS

Ebe_Scrooge said:

WillPS said:

The inference with all these things is that if you naff off they'll charge it to your card - which I don't think could happen as the cardholder would not be able to authorise it.

Of course they could charge it, it's classed as a "Card Not Present" transaction.  Exactly the same as if you buy something online or over the phone.

There's theoretically nothing to stop them charging far more than you actually owe if they were less than scrupulous - at which point you'd raise a dispute with the card company.  But that's a different issue.

As others have said, it's cardholder not present. Merchants cannot charge anything to a card without the cardholder's permission.

The solution is to take a deposit when opening a tab - this also helps the retailer as they know they have those funds to capture if the cardholder does a runner.

ilikewatch2

I visited a pub in the North East a few years ago where customers who wished to open a tab were given the option of a) leaving a card behind the bar and giving verbal authorisation it to be used to clear any outstanding bill if the customer left without paying or b) leaving their right shoe behind the bar as security.
I got chatting to the barman and he told me that in the two years they had run this system they would encounter someone leaving a maxed/cancelled card and leaving without paying roughly once a month, but had never had anyone leave their shoe behind and not settle their tab.

jbrassy

If you don't trust a pub enough to leave your card behind the bar, why on earth are you going there to drink alcohol? If a pub was routinely defrauding their customers, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot because people would stop going or they'd eventually get caught and closed down. 

I personally don't mind doing it at my local since I trust the owners and I can understand why they do it. I have accidently left the pub without paying once, only to find my credit card replaced by a playing card from the pub the next day (I obviously went back and settled up). 

WillPS

jbrassy said:

If you don't trust a pub enough to leave your card behind the bar, why on earth are you going there to drink alcohol? If a pub was routinely defrauding their customers, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot because people would stop going or they'd eventually get caught and closed down. 

I personally don't mind doing it at my local since I trust the owners and I can understand why they do it. I have accidently left the pub without paying once, only to find my credit card replaced by a playing card from the pub the next day (I obviously went back and settled up). 

Help me understand - you left the pub without paying - was your card behind the bar or with you? If the former, how do you know it had been replaced? If the latter, how did they replace it?

jbrassy

WillPS said:

jbrassy said:

If you don't trust a pub enough to leave your card behind the bar, why on earth are you going there to drink alcohol? If a pub was routinely defrauding their customers, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot because people would stop going or they'd eventually get caught and closed down. 

I personally don't mind doing it at my local since I trust the owners and I can understand why they do it. I have accidently left the pub without paying once, only to find my credit card replaced by a playing card from the pub the next day (I obviously went back and settled up). 

Help me understand - you left the pub without paying - was your card behind the bar or with you? If the former, how do you know it had been replaced? If the latter, how did they replace it?

So the way it works at my local pub is: you give them your credit card and they give you a playing card which you give back when you want to settle up. After a few drinks, I left the pub and forgot to pay, so my credit card was behind the bar and the playing card was still in my wallet. I didn't realise this until the next day. So the next day, I went back to the pub, I gave them the playing card, they gave me my credit card, and I paid for the drinks. Maybe I didn't explain it very well, but it's not a complicated system. 

WillPS

jbrassy said:

WillPS said:

jbrassy said:

If you don't trust a pub enough to leave your card behind the bar, why on earth are you going there to drink alcohol? If a pub was routinely defrauding their customers, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot because people would stop going or they'd eventually get caught and closed down. 

I personally don't mind doing it at my local since I trust the owners and I can understand why they do it. I have accidently left the pub without paying once, only to find my credit card replaced by a playing card from the pub the next day (I obviously went back and settled up). 

Help me understand - you left the pub without paying - was your card behind the bar or with you? If the former, how do you know it had been replaced? If the latter, how did they replace it?

So the way it works at my local pub is: you give them your credit card and they give you a playing card which you give back when you want to settle up. After a few drinks, I left the pub and forgot to pay, so my credit card was behind the bar and the playing card was still in my wallet. I didn't realise this until the next day. So the next day, I went back to the pub, I gave them the playing card, they gave me my credit card, and I paid for the drinks. Maybe I didn't explain it very well, but it's not a complicated system. 

Nah nah, I got you. I just didn't understand where the playing card came from.

born_again

jbrassy said:

If you don't trust a pub enough to leave your card behind the bar, why on earth are you going there to drink alcohol? If a pub was routinely defrauding their customers, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot because people would stop going or they'd eventually get caught and closed down. 

I personally don't mind doing it at my local since I trust the owners and I can understand why they do it. I have accidently left the pub without paying once, only to find my credit card replaced by a playing card from the pub the next day (I obviously went back and settled up). 

It's not the pub. It's a possible staff member. 
Just how much do they vet their staff? Do they run full security checks on them to ensure they do not have any criminal convictions?

Simply pay for each round, rather than a tab. Time taken is the same. You have to order & wait for the drinks. They still have to ring them through the till.  So it is just a case of either tapping card or entering pin.

I have spoken customers given the wrong cards, charged the wrong amounts & reporting their cards lost after leaving behind the bar...