Care home fees

perfect10

I’m after some advice. My mum has been in current residential care home for over 5 years. She has a physical disability, doesn’t qualify for CHC funding, mentally she is fine. When she first moved there she was funded by the local authority and this care home did not require top up fees. At the time my dad lived in the family home so this was disregarded for finances. 3 years ago my dad passed away and my mum became self funding as she owned half the house. 

Her money has now dropped below the £23,500 threshold and so we have started the process to request LA funding again. I have POA so am dealing with this.
in this time, the care home have increased their fees (as have all care homes) but the LA have not increased the amount they are willing to pay and so this will leave a shortfall of £75 per week. The social worker hinted that we as a family may be asked to pay the top up to enable her to stay there. I am aware that this is not enforceable and I can’t afford it anyway. The social worker did ask how she would feel about a different care home at which point she cried and has been anxious about this ever since.

Can they make her move somewhere cheaper? She would be distraught if she had to move as this has been home for over 5 years and this would have a detrimental impact on her emotional well-being. Also the reason she was placed here in the first place was because it required no top up fees. I am aware that there are a number of residents who are LA funded who have been there longer than my mum.
I would of course fight any decision to move her, I did an interview on radio 5 live about care homes closing a few years ago after her previous care home closed and made some very good contacts this way, but I just wondered whether anyone has any experience of this?

The assessment has now taken over 3 months and still no decision on whether the LA will take over funding again!! It may all come to nothing as they may just agree to pay but it is taking such a long time and I never get told anything when I phone that I am starting to become concerned about the delay.

huckster

Why have the LA refused to increase amount they can pay ? Can this be subject of appeal if the LA accept to fund again?

Are you in process of selling the family home?  If so, is there information on the equity available to cover paying the carehome shortfall as well as other debt obligations.

Suggest speaking to care home manager to see what can be agreed. Will they accept say £25 a week from family until the finances are resolved.

Yes they can move people after a period where the carehome fees are not being paid. 

pmlindyloo

This is a useful article:

Care home top-up fees - Which?

You could also contact AgeUK although it might be best to wait until the local authority has made a decision.

Note that you can appeal any decision.  I believe that there have been appeal decisions made which indicate that a move to another care home would cause considerable distress and ill health and the appeal was granted.

Also note that local authorities also can make arrangements with the care home for a reduction in fees.  It is often the case that LAs pay a lower rate to the care home than privately funded residents.

perfect10

huckster said:

Why have the LA refused to increase amount they can pay ? Can this be subject of appeal if the LA accept to fund again?

Are you in process of selling the family home?  If so, is there information on the equity available to cover paying the carehome shortfall as well as other debt obligations.

Suggest speaking to care home manager to see what can be agreed. Will they accept say £25 a week from family until the finances are resolved.

Yes they can move people after a period where the carehome fees are not being paid. 

No idea why the LA have not increased the amount they agree to pay. Not even an increase for inflation! Care homes were always going to increase their fees after all. Yes I would appeal if they won’t pay the additional top up.

The house was sold and she self funded but money now dropped below the £23,500 hence us going through the assessment now. In the meantime she is still fully funding the place herself while we wait the outcome for financial assessment. 

The LA will agree to fund their going rate as her money has dropped as I have all the financial paperwork in order, it is just the additional top up of £75 I am unsure of.

perfect10

pmlindyloo said:

This is a useful article:

Care home top-up fees - Which?

You could also contact AgeUK although it might be best to wait until the local authority has made a decision.

Note that you can appeal any decision.  I believe that there have been appeal decisions made which indicate that a move to another care home would cause considerable distress and ill health and the appeal was granted.

Also note that local authorities also can make arrangements with the care home for a reduction in fees.  It is often the case that LAs pay a lower rate to the care home than privately funded residents.

Thanks really useful article.
yes the LA will pay a lower rate to the care home than what she pays privately as this is what happened before she had to self fund. But they now have a top up to pay. I have since spoken to the manager of care home who tells me the majority of residents are LA funded at the moment so I’m hoping this means it will be ok

Mojisola

perfect10 said:

The house was sold and she self funded but money now dropped below the £23,500 hence us going through the assessment now. In the meantime she is still fully funding the place herself while we wait the outcome for financial assessment. 

The LA will agree to fund their going rate as her money has dropped as I have all the financial paperwork in order, it is just the additional top up of £75 I am unsure of.

For others getting close to this situation, always start the process well before the £23,500 is reached because it's always going to take time to sort things out.

There's a rule with council funded clients that they aren't allowed to pay the top-up fee themselves, even though they may have that lump sum in savings.  It has to come from a third party - and it's an on-going contract so the amount to be paid will increase every time the care home bill goes up and is a commitment that lasts for as long as the resident is at the home.

There might be local solicitors who specialise in elders' problems - there are precedents for them to argue that the council should keep the resident at the place which has been their home because moving would cause too much distress.

We only have one home in our area that accepts council funded residents without any top-up being paid and I wouldn't put anyone there - the low income they have to work with shows in so many ways.

perfect10

Mojisola said:

perfect10 said:

The house was sold and she self funded but money now dropped below the £23,500 hence us going through the assessment now. In the meantime she is still fully funding the place herself while we wait the outcome for financial assessment. 

The LA will agree to fund their going rate as her money has dropped as I have all the financial paperwork in order, it is just the additional top up of £75 I am unsure of.

For others getting close to this situation, always start the process well before the £23,500 is reached because it's always going to take time to sort things out.

There's a rule with council funded clients that they aren't allowed to pay the top-up fee themselves, even though they may have that lump sum in savings.  It has to come from a third party - and it's an on-going contract so the amount to be paid will increase every time the care home bill goes up and is a commitment that lasts for as long as the resident is at the home.

There might be local solicitors who specialise in elders' problems - there are precedents for them to argue that the council should keep the resident at the place which has been their home because moving would cause too much distress.

We only have one home in our area that accepts council funded residents without any top-up being paid and I wouldn't put anyone there - the low income they have to work with shows in so many ways.

Thanks. Yes the process takes ages, my mum had £30,000 when we started the process over 3 months ago and now has £22,000. This home didn’t have a top up originally and after looking at all homes that didn’t require a top up at the time there was no contest it is beautifully clean all the others had that smell of sour food and wee! 

There is no third party who could pay the top up and to be honest don’t see why we should when it was social care who originally agreed to this placement and funded it for the first 2 years. It is only since Jan this year that the prices have gone up.
There are routes to go down before I would want solicitors involved such as appeal, local MP, local papers etc but I would go down this route if necessary.
hopefully it won’t come to that!

Bogof_OAP

Mojisola said:

perfect10 said:

The house was sold and she self funded but money now dropped below the £23,500 hence us going through the assessment now. In the meantime she is still fully funding the place herself while we wait the outcome for financial assessment. 

The LA will agree to fund their going rate as her money has dropped as I have all the financial paperwork in order, it is just the additional top up of £75 I am unsure of.

For others getting close to this situation, always start the process well before the £23,500 is reached because it's always going to take time to sort things out.

There's a rule with council funded clients that they aren't allowed to pay the top-up fee themselves, even though they may have that lump sum in savings.  It has to come from a third party - and it's an on-going contract so the amount to be paid will increase every time the care home bill goes up and is a commitment that lasts for as long as the resident is at the home.

There might be local solicitors who specialise in elders' problems - there are precedents for them to argue that the council should keep the resident at the place which has been their home because moving would cause too much distress.

We only have one home in our area that accepts council funded residents without any top-up being paid and I wouldn't put anyone there - the low income they have to work with shows in so many ways.

The bolded bit I find extraordinary.  Not everyone has family who are able or willing to pay.  Why on earth can't the resident themselves top it up from their savings or pension income if it's a case of that or having to move to somewhere cheaper?

Pollycat

Bogof_OAP said:

Mojisola said:

perfect10 said:

The house was sold and she self funded but money now dropped below the £23,500 hence us going through the assessment now. In the meantime she is still fully funding the place herself while we wait the outcome for financial assessment. 

The LA will agree to fund their going rate as her money has dropped as I have all the financial paperwork in order, it is just the additional top up of £75 I am unsure of.

For others getting close to this situation, always start the process well before the £23,500 is reached because it's always going to take time to sort things out.

There's a rule with council funded clients that they aren't allowed to pay the top-up fee themselves, even though they may have that lump sum in savings.  It has to come from a third party - and it's an on-going contract so the amount to be paid will increase every time the care home bill goes up and is a commitment that lasts for as long as the resident is at the home.

There might be local solicitors who specialise in elders' problems - there are precedents for them to argue that the council should keep the resident at the place which has been their home because moving would cause too much distress.

We only have one home in our area that accepts council funded residents without any top-up being paid and I wouldn't put anyone there - the low income they have to work with shows in so many ways.

The bolded bit I find extraordinary.  Not everyone has family who are able or willing to pay.  Why on earth can't the resident themselves top it up from their savings or pension income if it's a case of that or having to move to somewhere cheaper?

This article may explain:

https://www.which.co.uk/later-life-care/financing-care/care-home-finance/third-party-top-up-fees-ahp213p70j9k

In particular:

Residents usually can’t pay their own top-up fees (they shouldn’t be able to afford this if they’ve qualified for local authority funding), so it’s normally a relative, friend or, occasionally, a charitable organisation who might pay.

Mojisola is right to caution about paying top up fees as it is an ongoing commitment. 'legally obliged to pay' is the phrase used in the article.

I guess if the local authority are paying part or most towards care home funding for someone, they think they should have a say in where someone stays and how much it costs.

Not saying this is right but it is how it is.

And all those people wanting to give their houses away to family to preserve the inheritance (or families who want their parents to do that) should really stop and consider the implications of doing that.

OP - you may wish to read the last bit of the article titled 'what are the alternatives to a care home top-up'.

I sympathise.

My Mum is in a care home as was my Dad.

Bogof_OAP

Thanks for the link, most interesting.  Still seems a bit odd that despite e.g. the OP's surcharge of £75 a week meaning someone with the permitted £23,500 of savings could pay their own top-up for six years (obviously assuming no other expenses, which is unrealistic).

How awful to be in a nice home and get moved to a grotty one despite being happy to pay the difference yourself  .

Mojisola

Pollycat said:

Residents usually can’t pay their own top-up fees (they shouldn’t be able to afford this if they’ve qualified for local authority funding), so it’s normally a relative, friend or, occasionally, a charitable organisation who might pay.

Mojisola is right to caution about paying top up fees as it is an ongoing commitment. 'legally obliged to pay' is the phrase used in the article.

I had a bit of a fight with the council about this.  Dad was on a deferred payment scheme while I sold his house but had enough capital to pay the top-up fees until the sale went through.

The council tried to get me to sign up for paying the extra fees on the basis that he wasn't allowed to.  It took quite a bit of effort to convince them that he was actually self-funding (or would be as soon as the money from his house was available) and so could pay from his own money.