House buying - solicitors... do I have redress?

BelugaWhale

We are buying a house for 333k the house is of vacant possession with no onward chain.

We're selling our current house for 162k to a first time buyer.

The purchase of our house should have been a simple conveyance.  The title is Absolute.  There are no rights or way or leeways on it.  No works have been done on the property since before 2008 and so there are no guarantees for it.  The vendor is a centenarian* who has moved into a Home, so there is no chain and the property is a vacant possession. Our buyer is a first time buyer. Solicitors were instructed 3 months ago. All searches took no more than 10 days.

Issues with selling our house:
Our buyers solicitor requested an electrical certificate and gas certificate. Our electrician inspected the house, and told us that by law he could not provide a certificate unless we installed PME. That all houses require a PME by law. The only people who can install a PME were Western Power Distribution. I contacted WPD who said that we did not need a PME. They spoke with our electrician, but our electrician would not budge. We couldn't find another electrician at such short notice so I just paid the money to have the PME installed. PME installation is a low priority job for which you usually wait months, but under the circumstances WPD managed to shorten this wait time to two weeks.

Our electrician returned to test everything. He laughed nervously, and said the PME had done nothing..."but you have to have one by law". I have spoken with several electricians, all of whom say it's not law. "It doesn't matter how you're earthed as long as your earth is good". 

Our buyers solicitor requested a Gas Safety Certificate for a gas fire that we had removed and pipes capped. Our heating engineer said he could not give a safety certificate for something which has been removed, but can give a certificate for everything which is present. He tested all the gas pipes, boiler and gas appliances in the house and gave us a certificate.

Our buyers solicitor wouldn't accept this certificate, claiming that we had to supply one specifically for the capped gas pipe. Our Gas Engineer said the certificate he provided covers everything, that there is no certificate for a capped pipe. That he test the entire system for leaks - including that capped pipe - and there are none. Our solicitor repeated this to our buyers solicitor... but they wouldn't have it.

This was happening concurrently to the electrical issue.

We lost about six weeks. I am in touch with my buyer. She took a copy of the gas certificate to several heating engineers, all of whom told here there was nothing wrong. She instructed her solicitor to proceed with the sale. The solicitor wrote back "If you're sure. You appreciate we are not gas experts'. Our buyer paid her solicitor her mortgage deposit, and paid their final bill for conveyancing.

Her solicitor then sat on this for another week! - so that's 7 weeks!

Issues with buying our house

When our buyer paid her solicitor, our solicitor suggested a completion date of Tuesday 22nd June - last Tuesday.  I thought great - everything must be done! I then found out they had not heard a thing from our vendors solicitor. They advised me to speak with the estate agent to find out what's happening...  There was concern the vendor could have died...

I couldn't get hold of the estate agent, so my solicitor gave me the name of our vendors solicitor and advised me to call them - which I did. They said "We can't speak with you, you're not our client."

They wrote to my solicitor advising their client was on holiday. I managed to speak with the vendors estate agent who said he was not aware of this. He then jogged everyone along, and to his credit everything that was outstanding was handled the following day.

At the same time, our solicitor asked if we were getting a mortgage... I had already told them several times that we were getting one. I don't know how they didn't this... I had been CC'd into emails between them and our mortgage broker. Our mortgage broker was extremely annoyed as she had sent the stuff to them on three separate occasions... but to her credit, our broker sorted this out.

So here we are with a week to go... Our vendors solicitor is ready, our buyers solicitor is ready... we're ready... lets set a date.  My mortgage broker told my solicitor they could have the money on Monday 28th. Our buyers mortgage advisor also said they could have the money on Monday 28th. I heard from the estate agent that our vendor was also happy with Monday 28th. So lets go for Monday 28th. We instructed our solicitors... booked removals etc etc...

On Monday 28th I receive a phone call from my Solicitor saying that our VENDOR is unable to get their mortgage in time... I didn't understand this - the house is vacant, our vendor isn't buying anywhere else, why do they need a mortgage? I questioned if they meant our buyer... they said no, our vendor...

So I'm properly confused, and angry. I wrote an email to my solicitor concerning the incompetence and ineptitude in the handling of our conveyance. Why did they suggest last Tuesday when it would not be possible? Why did they not find out about the vendor needing a mortgage... why did they keep questioning if we were to have a mortgage...

This upset them - but it needed to be said. The whole thing should have been so simple. I then find out from the Solicitor that they meant our buyer - our buyer needed a mortgage, not the vendor.

So I spoke with our buyer who showed me proof of her mortgage. It turns out her solicitor is really busy, and didn't want to complete. Her solicitor said that it would be impossible for her to obtain the money from the bank in time (even though the mortgage broker said it was there, ready).

Our buyer demanded a conference call. During the call, the solicitor told our buyer that she has a lot of clients all wanting to complete. She implied that she wouldn't pay stamp duty as she falls under Septembers deadline.

So it's not that the solicitor CAN'T complete... she is unwilling to. I am livid. We have the funds to pay the stamp duty - but its the principle... we have bent over backwards to do everything that has been asked. I've been chasing everyone, working my backside to get this over the line - and thwarted by our buyers solicitor. 

The house we are buying needs a lot of work - the stamp duty money would have helped.

Do I have any redress? My wife says to leave it...

I once spent a fortune defending an action against me. I won - but my defence cost more than what the party tried to claim. Unfortunately, that's how I roll... I feel wronged. I am extremely angry. I'll probably calm down in a few days.

* she is in full control of her faculties - but decided she'd move while fit to pre-empt any help she might need. I've not met her, but she sounds amazing!

user1977

TLDR, but redress against whom? If your buyer can't complete when you want to (for whatever reason), and you haven't exchanged contracts, then nobody has any redress against anybody.

BelugaWhale

The Electrician for making us install something on grounds that "its the law" when its not...

The Solicitor for not being able to read a gas certificate...

Our Solicitor has been a bit rubbish - but to their credit were ready when they needed to be.

Our buyer wants to complete - she's in position to complete.... she paid her solicitor the deposit for her mortgage, and their bill... her mortgage advisor says the money is ready... but her solicitor won't complete because she's too busy...

Can she sue them - if I paid?

Thrugelmir

Today is the cut-off for a large number of transactions in order to avoid the stamp duty cliff edge. Solicitors will have been giving priority to these clients obviously. Different solicitors will have had differing work loads to contend with. From tomorrow normality and sanity will return. Within a few days the stress will be over. 

BelugaWhale

A mate of mine says I should have played hard ball: "complete today or the price goes up". Not going to do that as it would unfairly hurt our buyer not the solicitor.

BelugaWhale

Thrugelmir said:

Today is the cut-off for a large number of transactions in order to avoid the stamp duty cliff edge. Solicitors will have been giving priority to these clients obviously. Different solicitors will have had differing work loads to contend with. From tomorrow normality and sanity will return. Within a few days the stress will be over. 

I'm aware - I'm facing the edge - because this solicitor REFUSES to progress. They have dragged their feet and been on a go slow all the way.

Tiglet2

No solicitor would have guaranteed completion by 30th June.  In any case, the stamp duty deadline was extended to help those who couldn't complete by the 31st March, not those joining in with purchases 3 months ago.  You/your buyer/your seller have not exchanged therefore no breach of contract and nothing you or anyone else can sue for.  For all you know, your buyer's solicitor isn't refusing to complete because she's too busy, but because there is something else she is waiting for.

I don't think the electrician "made" you install something, you contacted the electrician because the buyer's solicitor asked for an electricity report and you engaged an electrician who advised he couldn't issue a lawful certificate without the PME.  That's totally different from taking the advice of your solicitor and finding out that carrying out an electricity report is not a legal requirement.  You could have responded to the buyers by saying that you were under no legal obligation to have this carried out and that the buyer must rely on their own surveys and inspections.  I would imagine that the buyer's solicitor was asking for the Gas Safety Certificate for the installation of the boiler, rather than a gas fire, so perhaps there is some confusion there.

Obviously it is upsetting that the preferred date was missed, but of course every party in the chain has to agree the date.  The fact that it suited you, your buyer, your seller, your solicitor and the seller's solicitor but not the buyer's solicitor means that the date is not agreed.  Until exchange, nothing is binding.

I am sorry you feel wronged and extremely angry, but there are thousands and thousands of transactions hoping to complete today.  Some of them will miss out unfortunately.  You will still benefit a little bit until the end of September, but honestly, there is really no-one you can sue to give you any satisfactory outcome.

BelugaWhale

We "sold" last year - but our buyer couldn't get mortgage... Estate agent said they had! In the end I told our estate agent to do one, and sold the house myself on Facebook. Then we were gazumped on three houses. One estate agent tried to get us to bid on the doorstep in some kind of quasi auction... we walked away from it.

I asked my solicitors advice on the certificate - explaining a PME wasn't a legal requirement, but the electrician won't sign off without one. She said I had to provide a certificate - so I paid for the PME just to get one. 

I was not advised that the "buyer should rely on their own inspections". If I knew that was possible - of course I'd have done that. Why didn't my solicitor advise me of this? That would have saved weeks! I shall ask them.

I have seen the emails - the buyers solicitor specifically asked for the gas fire.... not the boiler. Bizarrely, they didn't ask about the boiler!

In any case, the boiler was fully serviced, tested and a gas safety certificate provided - everything, absolutely everything was done.... but this conveyancer can't be bothered to do her job, having taken her clients money and deposit.

GDB2222

BelugaWhale said:

We are buying a house for 333k the house is of vacant possession with no onward chain.

We're selling our current house for 162k to a first time buyer.

The purchase of our house should have been a simple conveyance.  The title is Absolute.  There are no rights or way or leeways on it.  No works have been done on the property since before 2008 and so there are no guarantees for it.  The vendor is a centenarian* who has moved into a Home, so there is no chain and the property is a vacant possession. Our buyer is a first time buyer. Solicitors were instructed 3 months ago. All searches took no more than 10 days.

Issues with selling our house:
Our buyers solicitor requested an electrical certificate and gas certificate. Our electrician inspected the house, and told us that by law he could not provide a certificate unless we installed PME. That all houses require a PME by law. The only people who can install a PME were Western Power Distribution. I contacted WPD who said that we did not need a PME. They spoke with our electrician, but our electrician would not budge. We couldn't find another electrician at such short notice so I just paid the money to have the PME installed. PME installation is a low priority job for which you usually wait months, but under the circumstances WPD managed to shorten this wait time to two weeks.

Our electrician returned to test everything. He laughed nervously, and said the PME had done nothing..."but you have to have one by law". I have spoken with several electricians, all of whom say it's not law. "It doesn't matter how you're earthed as long as your earth is good". 

Our buyers solicitor requested a Gas Safety Certificate for a gas fire that we had removed and pipes capped. Our heating engineer said he could not give a safety certificate for something which has been removed, but can give a certificate for everything which is present. He tested all the gas pipes, boiler and gas appliances in the house and gave us a certificate.

Our buyers solicitor wouldn't accept this certificate, claiming that we had to supply one specifically for the capped gas pipe. Our Gas Engineer said the certificate he provided covers everything, that there is no certificate for a capped pipe. That he test the entire system for leaks - including that capped pipe - and there are none. Our solicitor repeated this to our buyers solicitor... but they wouldn't have it.

This was happening concurrently to the electrical issue.

We lost about six weeks. I am in touch with my buyer. She took a copy of the gas certificate to several heating engineers, all of whom told here there was nothing wrong. She instructed her solicitor to proceed with the sale. The solicitor wrote back "If you're sure. You appreciate we are not gas experts'. Our buyer paid her solicitor her mortgage deposit, and paid their final bill for conveyancing.

Her solicitor then sat on this for another week! - so that's 7 weeks!

Issues with buying our house

When our buyer paid her solicitor, our solicitor suggested a completion date of Tuesday 22nd June - last Tuesday.  I thought great - everything must be done! I then found out they had not heard a thing from our vendors solicitor. They advised me to speak with the estate agent to find out what's happening...  There was concern the vendor could have died...

I couldn't get hold of the estate agent, so my solicitor gave me the name of our vendors solicitor and advised me to call them - which I did. They said "We can't speak with you, you're not our client."

They wrote to my solicitor advising their client was on holiday. I managed to speak with the vendors estate agent who said he was not aware of this. He then jogged everyone along, and to his credit everything that was outstanding was handled the following day.

At the same time, our solicitor asked if we were getting a mortgage... I had already told them several times that we were getting one. I don't know how they didn't this... I had been CC'd into emails between them and our mortgage broker. Our mortgage broker was extremely annoyed as she had sent the stuff to them on three separate occasions... but to her credit, our broker sorted this out.

So here we are with a week to go... Our vendors solicitor is ready, our buyers solicitor is ready... we're ready... lets set a date.  My mortgage broker told my solicitor they could have the money on Monday 28th. Our buyers mortgage advisor also said they could have the money on Monday 28th. I heard from the estate agent that our vendor was also happy with Monday 28th. So lets go for Monday 28th. We instructed our solicitors... booked removals etc etc...

On Monday 28th I receive a phone call from my Solicitor saying that our VENDOR is unable to get their mortgage in time... I didn't understand this - the house is vacant, our vendor isn't buying anywhere else, why do they need a mortgage? I questioned if they meant our buyer... they said no, our vendor...

So I'm properly confused, and angry. I wrote an email to my solicitor concerning the incompetence and ineptitude in the handling of our conveyance. Why did they suggest last Tuesday when it would not be possible? Why did they not find out about the vendor needing a mortgage... why did they keep questioning if we were to have a mortgage...

This upset them - but it needed to be said. The whole thing should have been so simple. I then find out from the Solicitor that they meant our buyer - our buyer needed a mortgage, not the vendor.

So I spoke with our buyer who showed me proof of her mortgage. It turns out her solicitor is really busy, and didn't want to complete. Her solicitor said that it would be impossible for her to obtain the money from the bank in time (even though the mortgage broker said it was there, ready).

Our buyer demanded a conference call. During the call, the solicitor told our buyer that she has a lot of clients all wanting to complete. She implied that she wouldn't pay stamp duty as she falls under Septembers deadline.

So it's not that the solicitor CAN'T complete... she is unwilling to. I am livid. We have the funds to pay the stamp duty - but its the principle... we have bent over backwards to do everything that has been asked. I've been chasing everyone, working my backside to get this over the line - and thwarted by our buyers solicitor. 

The house we are buying needs a lot of work - the stamp duty money would have helped.

Do I have any redress? My wife says to leave it...

I once spent a fortune defending an action against me. I won - but my defence cost more than what the party tried to claim. Unfortunately, that's how I roll... I feel wronged. I am extremely angry. I'll probably calm down in a few days.

* she is in full control of her faculties - but decided she'd move while fit to pre-empt any help she might need. I've not met her, but she sounds amazing!

Could someone provide a precis, please?

BelugaWhale

GDB2222 Everyone is in a position to proceed with sales, but our buyers solicitor refuses to proceed because they are too busy... buyer has paid their solicitor their deposit, and paid their final bill... 

Our buyer wanted to complete on Monday at the latest, but solicitor says no... (and there was some guff with electrician and gas along the way). They want to complete on 6th July, which is outrageous. Buyer is peeved off. We're peeved off... people we're buying from are peeved off. Buyers solicitor is artificially holding everything up - and stamp duty deadline will be missed.

Irishpearce26

BelugaWhale said:

GDB2222 Everyone is in a position to proceed with sales, but our buyers solicitor refuses to proceed because they are too busy... buyer has paid their solicitor their deposit, and paid their final bill... 

Our buyer wanted to complete on Monday at the latest, but solicitor says no... (and there was some guff with electrician and gas along the way). They want to complete on 6th July, which is outrageous. Buyer is peeved off. We're peeved off... people we're buying from are peeved off. Buyers solicitor is artificially holding everything up - and stamp duty deadline will be missed.

The only person who may have redress is your buyer. Regarding the electrician you should have done more checks/research before instructing them to carry out the work.

If you instructed your solicitors at the end of March you were pushing it to complete by the SDLT deadline, the extension was for those transaction that wouldn't make the March deadline.