Unadopted Land that's now been sold on- should we go ahead with the purchase?

Aldraper

hi all

first time poster here (long time lurker, been so useful over the years to read all the collected wisdom so THANKYOU!)

We're in the process of trying to buy a 1930s end terrace house, we'd got almost all the way there. HOWEVER in the searches it says the house owner also has responsibility for charges and maintenance over an "unadopted road".   It turns out this was a small side alley, giving "back access" to the garden. It's on the plans in 1934 when it was built.
(The main road is adopted so we're not worried about that)

However it seems in subsequent years, this small side alley has been incorporated into land that was given over to build some shops and flats, and this land is now privately owned and used as a car park behind the shops and flats.

So basically, the house we are trying to buy has a fence that then directly backs onto this car park, instead of the original side alley. We would be responsible for this fence. 

The owner we're trying to buy off didn't' know about this unadopted land clause in the deeds and says he's never been asked for any charges or money. The 'side alley' doesn't exist any more, and it doesn't give us any access to our property. But it's still in the deeds to the house. 

We are trying to work out what to do- is it a risk if we go ahead that we could be slapped with loads of maintenance and charges or is it the case the the land isn't unadopted any more?

Any help or advice welcome- if we have to pull out the sale I'll be gutted (it's been a long time in getting here and it's been really hard to find a house to stay in the area we want to for our kids school). But rather that than be hit with an enormous bill! 


thanks all

Alter_ego

What was your solicitor's advice?

user1977

If there is any risk, it's minuscule and can be insured against cheaply enough. Isn't your solicitor giving you any advice?

Jeepers_Creepers

Hi Aldraper.

What does your conveyancer say? Or are they useless?

My mil just pulled out of a house purchase on the advice of her conveyancer over a similarish issue to yours; vendor had previously sold off the allocated garage which was in a separate block, but the deeds still showed liability for the upkeep of the frontage. The new garage owner never made any claim, and most likely is totally unaware of this 'error', but it would technically remain an 'issue'.

First Q - do the deeds also say you'll have a RoW over this 'alleyway'? Surely it does. In which case, surely you still will? In which case, the new owner has potentially as much/more to be worried about than you, should they later wish to build on it (you'll be walking through their new build :-)  ). Or if they actually use it for car parking - this would interfere with your RoW.

If you do have this RoW, then could you still use it? Is there a gate at the bottom of the garden from this 'side alley'?

Almost certainly - just like with mil's situation - it'll never become an actual issue in practice, as things will most likely just meander along as they currently do. But, there's always the potential for some git to make it an issue.

Don't know what to suggest. If that land has been tarmac'd as a car park, then pretty clearly you aren't going to have any maintenance bills for a looong time, and most likely never. And, in practice, any bolshie threat by the owner to seek monies would surely find you pacing up and down that alleyway with a wheelbarrow loaded with posts and barbed-wire fencing - having given an hour's notice that any vehicle that's in the way is at risk of being damaged. Only kidding, but you get the idea - it cuts both ways.

I'd have thought that the new owner would much rather have full control over this alleyway, and could be persuaded to finance the changes to the deeds, which will then be carried out at the same time as the transfer (if your conveyancer reckons this is ok). The matter could be made more complex, of course, if this alleyway also provides access for your other neighbours - in that case sorting it will be like herding a flock of bees.

I don't think that helps :-(

Aldraper

user1977 said:

If there is any risk, it's minuscule and can be insured against cheaply enough. Isn't your solicitor giving you any advice?

not yet- just keeps saying "we're putting in enquires" but because current owner says he doesn't know anything about it, they're going to have to go back to old council plans....

Aldraper

Alter_ego said:

What was your solicitor's advice?

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Hi Aldraper.

What does your conveyancer say? Or are they useless?

If you do have this RoW, then could you still use it? Is there a gate at the bottom of the garden from this 'side alley'?

Almost certainly - just like with mil's situation - it'll never become an actual issue in practice, as things will most likely just meander along as they currently do. But, there's always the potential for some git to make it an issue.

Don't know what to suggest. If that land has been tarmac'd as a car park, then pretty clearly you aren't going to have any maintenance bills for a looong time, and most likely never. And, in practice, any bolshie threat by the owner to seek monies would surely find you pacing up and down that alleyway with a wheelbarrow loaded with posts and barbed-wire fencing - having given an hour's notice that any vehicle that's in the way is at risk of being damaged. Only kidding, but you get the idea - it cuts both ways.

I'd have thought that the new owner would much rather have full control over this alleyway, and could be persuaded to finance the changes to the deeds, which will then be carried out at the same time as the transfer (if your conveyancer reckons this is ok). The matter could be made more complex, of course, if this alleyway also provides access for your other neighbours - in that case sorting it will be like herding a flock of bees.

I don't think that helps :-(

Ah, actually more useful than you think!  Thats really helpful. 

No RoW. The alleyway has completely gone and the car park is now  about 3 foot higher than the garden on the other side (they've levelled it as it was on a slope).

Problem is, the car park is really badly maintained and the fence needs proper repair. So we'd need to contact the carpark owner about that.  So if I get in touch with them about the fence- I may rattle the cage...

 And given it's in London, I wouldn't be surprised if someone decides to put flats on the car park in the future. sounds like I need to chase our solicitor about it! thank you....

user1977

Aldraper said:

user1977 said:

If there is any risk, it's minuscule and can be insured against cheaply enough. Isn't your solicitor giving you any advice?

not yet- just keeps saying "we're putting in enquires" but because current owner says he doesn't know anything about it, they're going to have to go back to old council plans....

Ok. It doesn't sound like a dealbreaker anyway.

Jeepers_Creepers

Aldraper said:

No RoW. The alleyway has completely gone and the car park is now  about 3 foot higher than the garden on the other side (they've levelled it as it was on a slope).

Problem is, the car park is really badly maintained and the fence needs proper repair. So we'd need to contact the carpark owner about that.  So if I get in touch with them about the fence- I may rattle the cage...

As far as I know, a RoW is a RoW is a RoW. It doesn't disappear just because someone changes the surface of the pathway or raises it by 3'.

Again - DO 'your' deeds show it as a RoW to your garden? If it does, then my understanding is you can walk down there at will.

That is worth confirming, because it should strengthen your hand. I mean, if the new owner were to ask for upkeep, then you can reply with "And you need to keep it clear for my access."

Is the fence 'yours'?

Aldraper

Jeepers_Creepers said:

As far as I know, a RoW is a RoW is a RoW. It doesn't disappear just because someone changes the surface of the pathway or raises it by 3'.

Again - DO 'your' deeds show it as a RoW to your garden? If it does, then my understanding is you can walk down there at will.

That is worth confirming, because it should strengthen your hand. I mean, if the new owner were to ask for upkeep, then you can reply with "And you need to keep it clear for my access."

Is the fence 'yours'?

It looks like on the original deeds, there was an alleyway that had an access gate into our back garden at the bottom. That gate has now gone and so there's no access to the garden. We're talking probably 1950s this was done, so I'm guessing 70 years+.
We have the map from 1934, when house was built, but the most recent map in the deeds (with property boundary delinaiated) have it not marked. But the wording is still the same- that we have responsbility for upkeep on an "unadopted road". 
 

Yes the fence is ours to upkeep which is what first alerted us to the problem.

I can walk the boundary fence, along the car park (its a rear car park for a Tesco Metro!) but can't access the house from it.

Historically of course, there would have been our boundary fence, then an alley way, then a wall to the patch of land that is now car park and shops. so it would only have been a fence onto an alley way. Now it's a fence onto a big car park. 

So maybe i should look into whether this land is actually still unadopted? And if it is, then we should have access to our property to it... it's just a small strip of what has now become a bigger car park. 

I'm just worried we'll be liable for tens of thousands of pounds or could be in the future...it's about 40 m long. But I'd really love NOT to pull out of the house sale! 

thanks for your help/thoughts

user1977

Aldraper said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

As far as I know, a RoW is a RoW is a RoW. It doesn't disappear just because someone changes the surface of the pathway or raises it by 3'.

Again - DO 'your' deeds show it as a RoW to your garden? If it does, then my understanding is you can walk down there at will.

That is worth confirming, because it should strengthen your hand. I mean, if the new owner were to ask for upkeep, then you can reply with "And you need to keep it clear for my access."

Is the fence 'yours'?

So maybe i should look into whether this land is actually still unadopted?

"Unadopted" means no more than the roads department don't maintain it. Which is almost certainly still the case if it's a Tesco car park!

But don't "look into it" by contacting third parties at this stage, as that may invalidate any indemnity insurance if that ends up being the solution.

Aldraper

user1977 said:

Aldraper said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

As far as I know, a RoW is a RoW is a RoW. It doesn't disappear just because someone changes the surface of the pathway or raises it by 3'.

Again - DO 'your' deeds show it as a RoW to your garden? If it does, then my understanding is you can walk down there at will.

That is worth confirming, because it should strengthen your hand. I mean, if the new owner were to ask for upkeep, then you can reply with "And you need to keep it clear for my access."

Is the fence 'yours'?

So maybe i should look into whether this land is actually still unadopted?

"Unadopted" means no more than the roads department don't maintain it. Which is almost certainly still the case if it's a Tesco car park!

But don't "look into it" by contacting third parties at this stage, as that may invalidate any indemnity insurance if that ends up being the solution.

thanks. that's helpful. Are you saying- we shouldn't find out who the owner of the land is?