Understanding Toilet types, options?

mnbvcxz

Anyone know about toilets? The stores just say ask a plumber, the plumber is evasive and just says pick one and he will put it in...

I know we have an old (60's?) victorian style loo with a high level cistern on the side wall, a lead flush pipe and a vertical waste outlet. 

I'm inclined to try and keep the cistern and pipe as its in a good place and rather well fixed in place.

I'm struggling to work out my options. I think I don't need to worry about the vertical waste as a 90 degree adapter would make a horizontal waste work anyway?

Does it have to be a high level toilet to work with a high level cistern? Can you put a high level cistern on a mid or low level toilet and it will work just the same or is the extra flush to much?

Can you take a close coupled toilet and leave off the cistern and just put the flush pipe straight in from your high cistern or is that a bad idea?

In an ideal world I would like a rimless toilet fed off the high cistern with a vertical outlet but I'm not sure that exists. I can see a burlington p19 that appears to be boringly similar to what I have now but may only be a low level toilet and £70 for a seat? Travis perkins do a basic loo for £45 I guess I could give up and try that...

Any help appreciated. 

Doozergirl

I don't think you're going to achieve much with trying to mix and match.  Cisterns, pipes, pans are not sold separately.  Part of a close coupled toilet won't fit to a high level cistern and would look weird if it did.  

Pick an entire toilet.   

Jeepers_Creepers

mnbvcxz said:

I'm inclined to try and keep the cistern and pipe as its in a good place and rather well fixed in place. Hopefully also becuase it's nice-looking? Otherwise, best get rid.

I'm struggling to work out my options. I think I don't need to worry about the vertical waste as a 90 degree adapter would make a horizontal waste work anyway? Yes, should do. But nicer if you chose a LL pan with the correct outlet in the first place: https://www.commercialwashroomsltd.co.uk/twyford-classic-low-level-toilet-pan-with-s-trap.html

Does it have to be a high level toilet to work with a high level cistern? Can you put a high level cistern on a mid or low level toilet and it will work just the same or is the extra flush to much? That's a very good question! And I don't know the answer. I fitted a 'Victorian' low-level setup in my last house for aesthetics (and it was nice...) and recall that the pan was the same - identical - for each option, low and high. But, science tells us there will be a shed-load of difference in water volume and velocity between the two, and posisbly a shed-load of water on the floor if you get it wrong. So I just can't see that you can change the height with no ill effect either way. So my best guess is that the high-level pipe has a restrictor in it? Or one needs installing in the H/L pipe either shoved in at the top or bottom.

Can you take a close coupled toilet and leave off the cistern and just put the flush pipe straight in from your high cistern or is that a bad idea? No. You won't get it to fit without serious and ugly mods (and they're all busy on the new MSE forum. ONLY KIDDING! Please don't ban me :-(  ), and the additional water vel/vol will likely cause issues, all over your shoes.

In an ideal world I would like a rimless toilet fed off the high cistern with a vertical outlet but I'm not sure that exists. I can see a burlington p19 that appears to be boringly similar to what I have now but may only be a low level toilet and £70 for a seat? Travis perkins do a basic loo for £45 I guess I could give up and try that... The Burl P19 (someone must have sniggered coming up with that name) is pretty ugly with that huge moulding behind it. Is your existing H/L cistern a nice one? And is the pan intact? And are they white? If so, why not take advantage of this and timber-clad the loo (vertical V-groove), painted whatever colour you like - Dove Grey, Sage Green, White, whatevs -  and fit either an oak seat or a V-grooved one. Make it LOOK good.

Any help appreciated. 

Oops, won't let me post without a 'reply'.

mnbvcxz

Thank you for your replies. Yes you may well be right that it would be easier to buy a package. But we are going to keep our existing cistern which is well attatched to the wall and it does make it several hundred pounds cheaper and reduce disruption. We have a window behind the loo so the cistern pretty much has to go on the side wall and with our wast position most packages would not actually fit us... I have actually found that many toilets are sold in bits seperately. 

Thank you for the Twford Classic link that does look like an option and relatively cheap if a little school looking. Very usefull.

After looking at my existing setup I think the floor waste may be too close to the wall to fit a burlington p19. There will not be room behind the waste. It may actually make more sense to get a horizontal waste and a ninety degree adaptor which may move the loo forward slightly and give more room. Or the Twyford suggested would still fit I think.

Still faintly wonder if I should be braver and get a rimless back to the wall one and just not put in against the wall, fitting to the waste with a 90 degree adaptor and see if the flush pipe can be reduced if it splashes too much. Perhaps I'm overthinking it. Who looks at a loo much anyway...

Doozergirl

Do you use that toilet?  

littleboo

is that the flush pipe coming down the wall diagonally? What is the height to  the bottom of the window behind the toilet?

Slinky

Jeez that looks grim

mnbvcxz

Look, in fairness it all looked much nicer before we ripped up the lino tiles and ground off the worst of the old floor adhesive with an angle grinder covering everything in black dust. Its a sixty year old loo but perfectly clean inside with a modern seat on. Just sitting in a building site. Works fine but we are probably going to break it getting the waste uncemented to tile underneath it, and it would be nice to have a fresh new one.

Yes that is the lead flush pipe coming down the wall. May end up turning into plastic, we will see.

The window is about four feet up above the loo but even if we could find a close coupled loo that would fit on a waste that close to the wall and not push everything too far forward I'm not sure we would as we like the extra flush power of a high up cistern. 

Jeepers_Creepers

mnbvcxz said:

Thank you for the Twford Classic link that does look like an option and relatively cheap if a little school looking. Very usefull.

After looking at my existing setup I think the floor waste may be too close to the wall to fit a burlington p19. There will not be room behind the waste. It may actually make more sense to get a horizontal waste and a ninety degree adaptor which may move the loo forward slightly and give more room. Or the Twyford suggested would still fit I think.

Still faintly wonder if I should be braver and get a rimless back to the wall one and just not put in against the wall, fitting to the waste with a 90 degree adaptor and see if the flush pipe can be reduced if it splashes too much. Perhaps I'm overthinking it. Who looks at a loo much anyway...

I think you're right about the Burlington - see diagram: https://www.homesupply.co.uk/Burlington-S-Trap-Pan-and-Low-Level-Cistern-P19-C1

The Twyford is 'school', but still 'classic' and will look fine with a nice traditional seat on it - oak or V-groove finish, for example.

And a horizontal waste coupled with an angled adaptor will do the job too, and make fitting easier. They are not pretty, but I guess you won't really see it sideways in that loo?

If you go S-trap type, traditionally they are cemented in place - like your current one - but you could use a rubber collar instead (prob easiest and best), or even sili it in. Cement is unforgiving, so if the pan moves afterwards it might crack.

Examples: https://www.plumbers-mate-sales.co.uk/mcalpine-4-inch-pan-connector-finned-rubber-seal---39000047-4176-p.asp and https://www.plumbers-mate-sales.co.uk/mcalpine-90mm-pan-connector-pipe-wall-flange-wc17-90---40005088-5764-p.asp (you'd need to check the dims).

littleboo

If you're trying to do it cheap, Screwfix have an Ideal Standard close coupled toilet & cistern with a soft close seat for £119. 

Doozergirl

If you want to keep everything  else, why not keep the pan? 

Better to find a decent seat that fits and give it a darn good clean with a steamer than mess around.