LTN charges

Violeta

Hi,I would like to have your advise on LTN penalty charges, please?
 My son and I, have received penalty charges for LTN (Low Traffic Neighbourhood) zone. We have just moved to the neighbourhood and was not aware of the restrictions. When registered with the Council, we didn’t get any info regarding the LTN zone that we are leaving in. We have residential parking permits for the zone that is under LTN and therefore we thought that we are expected from this, as we are permit holders. The sign clearly says except permit holders. I got 3 tickets, but my son has 13 tickets. He was passing twice a day by going and coming back from work. He stopped soon as he received the first ticket. We appealed but he got rejected and I am still waiting for reply. The Council is referring to the sign with red border for prohibition on motorbikes and vehicles but it does nit mention the sign “except permit holders”. I have attached the photos of the signs. 

Please could you advise what we should do in this case? 

Appreciate your time and advice. 

Many thanks. 

Jenni_D

Pepipoo forum is probably the best place to ask about this.

AdrianC

It's very clear cut. The sign says no motor vehicles beyond that point, except for people who hold that particular permit.

If you have DIS30 permits, then you can pass those closures. Simply providing the references for those permits should make the tickets go away.

If you do not have DIS30 permits, you cannot, and you are bang to rights. Pay the tickets.

DIS30 seems to be the disabled driver permits relating to LTN30, Loveday Road, Ealing.
https://www.ealing.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/15891/loveday_road_low_traffic_neighbourhood.pdf

Grumpy_chap

Adrian is probably correct.

However, I saw the photos and did not consider it clear what the plate "Except permit holders DIS 30" actually meant - it is not immediately obvious that the permit required is DIS 30 and I did not see anything referencing such in the official guide:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf

If "DIS 30" is the permit for disabled drivers only, how does everyone else get to go to their own property?

AdrianC

Read the PDF I linked. The closures are five very short stretches of road - literally 2m long - to reduce rat-running. Everybody else goes around.

Inconvenient? Yes, that's the entire point.

The signage is a perfectly conventional format, commonly used for parking restrictions.
We would all understand that this means only those people holding C1 permits can park there during those times, right?

Grumpy_chap

Thanks Adrian,
Yes - I get the parking restriction sign but the LTN sign does not have the permit reference in the shaded box.  It was not obvious to me that "DIS 30" is the permit reference.

We have some "LTN" areas introduced near us, they are whole "blocks" or "estates" and introduced under the guise of "Covid-19 Traffic Management Response Measures" allegedly but the orders that introduced them are not time-barred. 

The same rationale for "covid-measures" was used to introduce a number of other road measures without any consultation and likely would not have passed at normal times - the most absurd is planting bollards along cycle lanes to "create space" for social distancing between pedestrians and cyclists as cyclists are no longer too nervous to use the road.  This is all areas where there were previously white line marked cycle lanes in any case.  The most absurd is the road to the local hospital where the bollards mean cars can no longer move to one side to permit the free-passage of ambulances.  I'm interested to know how many excess deaths that caused by delaying access to urgent care for critical patients such as stroke, cardiac and trauma.

Flight3287462

I have never seen any signs like these in my life guess that's what happens when you live in the sticks north of the border.  My understanding is that since covid traffic measures, closed bridges etc have made London a total nightmare to drice in.

Back to the sign why doesn't it say "Except DIS30 Permit Holders".  Then it would be a lot clearer.

AdrianC

Hunyani_Flight_825 said:

I have never seen any signs like these in my life

You've seen signs like these many, MANY times, though...


And they often include exceptions, right?


Nothing really that unusual...

So it's simply a question of whether you understand "Except Permit Holders DIS30".

No rocket science there, is there?
"Except permit holders".
Well, lovely, but holders of which permits?
Absolutely any permit for anything? No, of course it can't be that.
Oooh, I wonder if the other bit might be the particular permit?
Do I have a permit that says that on it? No? Better not drive through there, then.

At least, that's how you'd hope the logical parsing of the sign went in a driver's mind, right...?

facade

As Hunyani_Flight_825 says, I also live in the Part of the Country That Doesn't Matter (i.e. not London) and it would never have occurred to me that either that the C1 in the parking sign or the DIS 30 was the actual permit required. I'd just know that I didn't have a permit.

So I can understand that the OP might think that a Residents Parking Permit might be the correct permit to allow access, just like you can pass the "except access" sign if you live there. 

Doesn't help the OP mind.....

TooManyPoints

Pity it was Ealing and not Lambeth:

Council faces calls to refund every LTN fine after admitting it introduced schemes 'illegally' (msn.com)

molerat

facade said:

...........

So I can understand that the OP might think that a Residents Parking Permit might be the correct permit to allow access, just like you can pass the "except access" sign if you live there. 

................

But the terms of the permit they do have will clearly state what is covered by that permit.