Economy 7 - possibly faulty meter/wiring - help please

TheLookingGlass

Hi all. My partner just moved flat. Same development, similar size (1 bed), just nicer and more modern.

The flat is electric heating and an immersion heater for water, same as the last flat, just all much newer. The electric radiators were just replaced.
Her electricity readings are somehow 3-4 times higher than her old flat. The meter says that she's now using around 800-900kwh per month, which is crazy. She's often staying at mine, and even when she's at hers, the radiators are set to low - she likes it quite cool in the flat. 

The flat has a economy 7 meter, but she is currently on a single unit tariff with Neon Reef. However the DAY reading is completely stationary and has not moved in the 3 months she's lived in the flat. It's only the night meter that moves (extremely fast). She's been in touch with Neon Reef and they asked for her to do a blackout test. The blackout test shows that when everything in the flat is off, the meter is off. 

In terms of the Day reading not moving at all, Neon Reef have said that if the flat used to have storage heaters, and these were removed, then one of the meter readings (day or night) would not move. Is this correct? Sounds like BS to me. Surely both readings continue to move even after storage heaters are removed from a property. It's just that the storage heaters were wired ONLY to the night reading?

Something strange is going on here. We want to be able to point at a faulty meter. Surely if the day reading is completely stationary and only the night reading is moving now, then the meter is faulty? Storage heaters being removed years ago has nothing to do with it? 

Or do some properties have economy 7 meters and one of the readings has been bypassed, so that  both day and night electricity usage runs through one reading?

Reading about economy 7 wiring online is not so simple. Thanks in advance for your help.

Tallerdave

What makes you think it's the night reading that is incrementing?

It sounds like the meter is in single rate mode, incrementing just one register. And that would align with the tariff. 

Finding out what's using all the energy would be a good strategy. Immersion heater on 24/7? Electric towel rails, underfloor heating?

TheLookingGlass

Hi Dave, thanks for the reply. Do you mean "moving quickly" by "incrementing"? If so, it's that her usage in her previous 1 bed flat was approx 250kwh per month, and now it's around 850kwh per month. This suggests something is wrong.

Are you certain that it's possible to have an E7 meter in "single rate mode"?
https://help.cheapenergyclub.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000345947-I-m-on-Economy-7-can-I-get-a-normal-single-rate-tariff-
"Many providers allow you to move to a standard dual-fuel tariff without changing meter – they'll simply add your day and night readings together to get your total usage, then charge you a single rate for it."
"You can also check with your supplier if it'll replace your Economy 7 meter with a standard single-rate meter – many suppliers offer to do this for free."
You're suggesting there's a third option, where one of the registers/readings are disconnected?
The immersion heater is on a timer. In the previous flat it was on 24/7. No underfloor heating, electric radiators hardly used. Towel rail hardly used.

Gerry1

It's certainly possible to have an E7 meter on a single rate tariff.  I've had this for decades.  Sometimes an E7 tariff is cheaper, sometimes single rate is cheaper so I choose whatever is best each time I switch.

Some meter sanity checks are required.  You've done a blackout test, hopefully after dark when other flats and common areas have the lights on.  Now do an accuracy test: switch off everything except a high power appliance such as a kettle or convector heater, fan heater etc.  Count the flashes (impulses) on the red LED marked 1000 Imp/kWh or whatever and work out how many there would be in an hour and hence how many kWh the meter thinks the kettle is drawing and compare it to the rating plate.  It's a bit rough and ready but there shouldn't be a large discrepancy.

• What happens if you turn absolutely everything on during the day?  Does the red LED flash and the meter reading go up?
• Check that the day and night readings haven't been transposed on the bill.

• Pictures of the meter, please !
• Are you sure it's a genuine E7 meter not a legacy one which had a separate output for heating equipment?  That could well explain why one register is not recording.
• If the radiators are panel ones that warm up immediately when switched on during the day rather than night storage heaters that charge overnight, then that's very bad news.  Nothing is more expensive.

leonj

The meter is faulty, it's probably ancient.  I can't imagine anyone from neon reef  having any in depth knowledge of electric meters so unless you change supplier you are probably stuck with it.

Tallerdave

If the meter is a smart meter, it can be remotely changed from E7 to non E7.

By incrementing I simply meant going up. Most meters refer to R1 & R2, so I wondered how you know it's the night rate that's going up? Perhaps it's an old meter with 'Night' actually written on it? In which case, whatever it was (clock or teleswitch) that changed if from night to day may have failed.

TheLookingGlass

Thanks for the replies and to Gerry for the detailed info and advice.

Gerry - I understand it's possible to have an E7 meter but using a single tariff. But does the act of moving to a single tariff cause one of the meter readings to no longer move? Surely not..

Your questions
-Unfortunately the E7 meter is too old for the LED flash test!
-Accuracy test - almost impossible to do I think? See photo below.
-Readings on bill are correct
-It may be a "legacy meter" you are referring to. Are you saying that these older meters had one number/reading which was ONLY ever connected to heating equipment? I'm finding this difficult to believe, as surely all electricity used at night should have been charged at the lower rate.
-Yes they are panel electric heaters but they've hardly been used since she moved in. They are new modern ones (https://www.heatstore.co.uk/intelirad_smart_radiator)

Neon reef have said:
"In instances where one register is moving and the other is not, this can indicate that storage heaters have been removed and accounts for one of the registers remaining the same. Please confirm if this is the case, as it would explain why one register of your meter is not changing."

This sounds like BS to me. Storage heaters were probably removed years ago. But referring back to my first point, surely this doesn't affect how the meter works? The night reading should move at night for your other appliances, and the day reading during the day.

https://www.cse.org.uk/downloads/advice-leaflets/energy-advice/advice_leaflet_economy_7.pdf
"Wiring circuits
A home using Economy 7 should have two wiring circuits. The main wiring circuit is the same as in any home, connecting to the plug sockets, lights etc. Anything using this circuit will turn on at any time, but if turned on at night you will be charged the cheaper rate." 
Makes sense to me. What Neon Reef have said doesn't. 
Would really help if you could clarify what you said about single rate tariffs on an E7 meter (my first question), and also explain how these older legacy E7 meters work.

Here's a photo of the dam thing.
The LOW reading moves. The NORMAL reading is stuck permanently on 62502.

Gerry1

TheLookingGlass said:

-Accuracy test - almost impossible to do I think? See photo below.

Nope, it's a doddle.  Just switch everything off, run a high powered device for say an hour and note the increase in the meter reading.  See how it compares with the rating plate.

If the little arrow never points towards the Normal register then the meter or the timer is faulty and needs to be replaced.

Presumably the disc keeps spinning and registering whenever electricity is being used?  The good news is that she hasn't been overcharged by all the consumption going on the night rate.

The very bad news is that the new heaters use expensive daytime electricity, nothing is more expensive and they will bankrupt her when it gets cold in the winter.  If she's renting, it's time to move.

A sneaky way of resolving the issue would be to move to an E7 tariff and wait until the stuck reading triggers an enquiry.  The risk is that if this takes a while you could be hit with a big bill if they recalculate the bill by estimating how much would have been at day rate and re-billing accordingly.

The meters which have separate outputs for heating are not E7.  Often such tariffs had three rates: there was an E7 meter and also  a separate meter connected only to circuits used only for heating.  That what's Neon Reef were envisaging.

QrizB

TheLookingGlass said:

-Unfortunately the E7 meter is too old for the LED flash test!
-Accuracy test - almost impossible to do I think? See photo below.

-Yes they are panel electric heaters but they've hardly been used since she moved in. They are new modern ones https://www.heatstore.co.uk/intelirad_smart_radiator

Would really help if you could clarify what you said about single rate tariffs on an E7 meter (my first question), and also explain how these older legacy E7 meters work.

Here's a photo of the dam thing.
The LOW reading moves. The NORMAL reading is stuck permanently on 62502.

That is a truly ancient meter, although it's nice and easy to read.

I can't see it on your picture - either it's hidden in the flash glare on the meter glass, or it's my eyesight - but it should say on the meter face how many revolutions of the disc happen for each kilowatt-hour. Count disc revolutions rather than LED flashes. Or, for low loads, use a stopwatch to time one revolution of the disc and then divide 3600 by that number of seconds to give a number of revolutions per hour.

I would be tempted to turn all the circuits off at the consumer unti (fuse box) then switch them back on, one by one.

Yuor meter has five wires coming out of it, not the usual four. The thin  red one is probably the pilot cable that carries the E7 signal and turned on/off the storage heaters when they were fitted. Nevertheless, while you are on a single-rate tariff it really doesn't matter if both registers work or not. If you ever plan to return to E7 you will need to get it replaced.

Those modern panel heaters are just as expensive to run as £20 Argos ones would be. what you gain is a little bit more control over when they turn on and off.

TheLookingGlass

Thanks for the replies
We will try those accuracy tests.
Gerry - you might think she hasn't been overcharged, but she just got an email today from Neon Reef, telling her her DD is increasing to £104pm due to these meter readings. In her last flat her bills were £30 - £40 pm. Those panel heaters have hardly been on so can't be the reason for these bills.
You said "If the little arrow never points towards the Normal register then the meter or the timer is faulty and needs to be replaced."
The DAY reading never moves, so I assume the arrow never points to it. Therefore it sounds like you disagree with Neon Reef customer service, who are implying this is normal?

Just to clarify (as I think we're going off track!), we're not that bothered about the Normal/Low reading not switching, but we want to use the fact that this is not switching to justify that the meter is faulty, and therefore could also be running fast?
Is there any reasonable explanation as to why it wouldn't switch (ie. is what Neon Reef stated possible?)

Gerry1

Your DD is NOT the bill.  It's just a top up of a kitty.  Think kWh instead.

MSE DD advice

But yes, if the kWh derived from actual meter readings is rocketing then it needs to be investigated. Don't assume that the arrow never moves, it needs to be checked. If it always points to LOW 24 hours a day then there's a fault which they need to fix. It's extremely unlikely that a disc meter will run fast. It's much more likely to slow down or get stuck completely, as I have experienced.

You need to do an extended blackout test and a consumption test. You can either count the revolutions of the disc to get an instant check, or let it clock up about say 1 kWh (about 20 minutes with a 3kW load). It's been quite cold until relatively recently so those heaters could have been eating up the kWh, especially if the out-of-the-box programming means that they've been on all day when they weren't needed.

But please stop hoping the meter is running fast, it won't be, that's just a red herring.  Having daily meter reads will help to understand the situation.

Neon Reef are probably assuming, wrongly, that it's not an E7 meter.  AFAIK they only offer single rate, so they just add the two registers together.  If it had been a three rate set up and all the heating on the special circuits had been disconnected then had been disconnected then the usage would have dropped to zero.  See whether the register increases during the daytime, switch everything on at lunchtime and see whether the meter spins like a top and the numbers ramp up.