Boundary Issue

AmmDram

Looking for a bit of general advice around a potential boundary dispute with our new neighbours. Please bear with me while I attempt to explain...

Our ‘new’ house is a 70s semi and has a conservatory built on the back. The conservatory doesn’t quite reach the party wall, and the edge facing the neighbours is fully brick. 

During the purchasing process we discovered the neighbours had erected the fence between the two properties and the previous owner of our house took no responsibility for it, though technically it should have been her responsibility. The main 4 panels of the fence are in the correct position, leading from the rear edge of the garden towards the party wall between the two houses, where you would expect them to be, however, they didn’t put in the final panel closest to the houses and instead, put in a diagonal panel which is attached to the corner of our conservatory. 

We queried this when we were buying the house as it didn’t seem right to us, that they have sectioned off a small area of garden which should belong to our property as it would allow access for maintenance to the outside wall of our conservatory. The boundary between the two houses should surely begin at the party wall, so the external wall of our house is in our garden, not in theirs? 

When questioned during the buying process, the vendor told our solicitor that the diagonal panel had been added for privacy and was easily removable. Fine we thought, unusual but shouldn’t be a problem to get it moved if we need to... 

Then this weekend, I raised it in a friendly manner with the next door neighbour, who insisted it was their land and we bought the house ‘sold as seen’ with the diagonal panel cutting off our access to the edge of our conservatory. I politely told her I didn’t think this was how it works and that the edge of our house was on the wrong side of the fence for the fence to be in the correct place. 

I really don’t want to fall out over the sake of a few inches of land (it’s literally only the depth of a couple of bricks), but neither do I want to miss out on claiming it back, as they have already attached climbing plants and a planter to the side of our conservatory and even told me they stuck a pvc panel to it as the previous owners let the wood at the top edge go rotten! I don’t want them interfering with our property and if the correct boundary is restored, then they won’t have access to the side of our conservatory. I’m also concerned in case future owners of that house decide to add an extension.

Having tried to talk to our new neighbour and hitting a brick wall, so to speak, I am wondering what I can do next?

I hate confrontation but I have found the original plans from when the houses were built and they show the boundary to be a straight line and the plans from when the conservatory was built show it doesn’t run quite to the edge of our property (though this is obvious from looking at the roofs etc).

Any ideas on how I can get the neighbours to remove the panel and install the end part of fence on the correct boundary? Or is she correct about it being ‘sold as seen’?!

Thanks. 

littleboo

I don't believe the "sold as seen" argument has any weight, but it would have been much better if the issue had been sorted as part of the purchase process. I think it may come down to how long they have had exclusive access to that piece of land, and that's the sort of thing your solicitor should have been advising you on (if they were aware of the situation)

theoretica

AmmDram said:

a small area of garden which should belong to our property as it would allow access for maintenance to the outside wall of our conservatory. The boundary between the two houses should surely begin at the party wall, so the external wall of our house is in our garden, not in theirs?

...

I really don’t want to fall out over the sake of a few inches of land (it’s literally only the depth of a couple of bricks),

You are correct - but unless you are very narrow yourself I don't quite see how you can do maintenance without needing access across the boundary.

Personally, I would think about seizing on the rot issue - you need to do complete and proper repairs immediately - which should hopefully lead to moving their planters away and putting up a fence for the climbers.  I am sure a nicely prompted builder could strongly advise on all the things which shouldn't be up against the wall and concern about damage and insurance claims...

grumbler

littleboo said:

 I think it may come down to how long they have had exclusive access to that piece of land,

I don't think this matters nowadays, after the adverse possession law was changed.

What matters is only what the title deeds say.

AFAIK, to have the deeds changed, the neighbour has to apply to Land Registry that informs the current owner. The oner has enough time to object and to put things right.

AmmDram

theoretica said:

AmmDram said:

a small area of garden which should belong to our property as it would allow access for maintenance to the outside wall of our conservatory. The boundary between the two houses should surely begin at the party wall, so the external wall of our house is in our garden, not in theirs?

...

I really don’t want to fall out over the sake of a few inches of land (it’s literally only the depth of a couple of bricks),

You are correct - but unless you are very narrow yourself I don't quite see how you can do maintenance without needing access across the boundary.

Personally, I would think about seizing on the rot issue - you need to do complete and proper repairs immediately - which should hopefully lead to moving their planters away and putting up a fence for the climbers.  I am sure a nicely prompted builder could strongly advise on all the things which shouldn't be up against the wall and concern about damage and insurance claims...

They’ve actually attached a basket type planter horizontally to the wall, not just placed it against the wall so a drill must’ve been involved.  

Thanks. We are saving up and considering our options to replace the whole upper part of the conservatory, not got the cash to do it immediately, and would only know about that damage from the neighbours telling me about their ‘repair’. I would like to be able to assess the state of our external brickwork etc without having to go into their garden or peer over the fence at the bottom of their garden. 

I’m also worried about access for repairs if we annoy them by pressing the boundary issue. I can’t believe our solicitor didn’t push for more details. I sent photos to my solicitor and asked them to look into it more than once.  They said we should visit the property (we did twice) but in lockdown when we were buying, it didn’t seem appropriate to knock on the neighbours door and we didn’t actually meet the vendor. 

We were just told via our solicitor it was a privacy panel and easily removed. Really regretting not pushing the matter further. 

Jeepers_Creepers

AD, take a deep breath

Yes, it's a shame this wasn't sorted when it should have been, so now it's up to you.

What can be said?

1) Well, almost certainly (actually, completely certainly), that land is yours. That panel should not be at a diagonal. None of your house wall should be within their land. Even the neighbs know this in their heart of hearts.

2) It's still yours. It ain't theirs. That panel - since they placed it there - is 'trespassing' on your land, as is anything attached to it on their side which sits within your side of the correct boundary line.

That's the good stuff. And now the not so good.

1) Your neighbs are a'oles. Dysfunctional. Presumptuous. Deluded. Quite possibly suffering from a personality disorder.

I mean, could you imagine yourself doing this sort of thing?! For a nano-second?! And then effectively telling the rightful owner "Tough!" Of course not. So that's the measure of the folk you are dealing with. They need putting back in their box.

The good news - now you know this - is that you don't need to consider their feelings that much; you are never going to be friends. You will never trust them - they are untrustworthy. They will - incredibly, jaw-droppingly - actually feel wrong done by when they are ultimately forced to accept the reality of the situation! I know! Nuts!!

Do you have Leg Prot on your house insurance? Cool - good move. Call them up and they'll sort it.

Be completely and utterly calm and measured when you speak to the neighbs (which I'm sure you are), but explain they have got this wrong, and you will be sorting it as (a) you wish to maintain easy access to your connie wall, and (b) it is simply not the correct boundary line, and it should be sorted so everyone knows literally where they stand.

Emphasise that you have no intention of falling out with them, that you will always be a helpful neighbour - happily take in parcels, etc - but an incorrect border needs to be sorted.

Oh, and record any conversation you have with them...

They'll either capitulate without complaint when your LP sends them a letter, or they'll capitulate with bad grace when ditto. For the latter scenario, you need to be ready to act on any form of 'retaliation' - hints of aggression, bad language, playing music loudly, anything that is obviously done to harass. That's why you need to record how they react to the news, and also note down anything they do in response.

These sorts of folk need putting firmly back in their boxes.

AmmDram

Jeepers_Creepers said:

AD, take a deep breath

Yes, it's a shame this wasn't sorted when it should have been, so now it's up to you.

What can be said?

1) Well, almost certainly (actually, completely certainly), that land is yours. That panel should not be at a diagonal. None of your house wall should be within their land. Even the neighbs know this in their heart of hearts.

2) It's still yours. It ain't theirs. That panel - since they placed it there - is 'trespassing' on your land, as is anything attached to it on their side which sits within your side of the correct boundary line.

That's the good stuff. And now the not so good.

1) Your neighbs are a'oles. Dysfunctional. Presumptuous. Deluded. Quite possibly suffering from a personality disorder.

I mean, could you imagine yourself doing this sort of thing?! For a nano-second?! And then effectively telling the rightful owner "Tough!" Of course not. So that's the measure of the folk you are dealing with. They need putting back in their box.

The good news - now you know this - is that you don't need to consider their feelings that much; you are never going to be friends. You will never trust them - they are untrustworthy. They will - incredibly, jaw-droppingly - actually feel wrong done by when they are ultimately forced to accept the reality of the situation! I know! Nuts!!

Do you have Leg Prot on your house insurance? Cool - good move. Call them up and they'll sort it.

Be completely and utterly calm and measured when you speak to the neighbs (which I'm sure you are), but explain they have got this wrong, and you will be sorting it as (a) you wish to maintain easy access to your connie wall, and (b) it is simply not the correct boundary line, and it should be sorted so everyone knows literally where they stand.

Emphasise that you have no intention of falling out with them, that you will always be a helpful neighbour - happily take in parcels, etc - but an incorrect border needs to be sorted.

Oh, and record any conversation you have with them...

They'll either capitulate without complaint when your LP sends them a letter, or they'll capitulate with bad grace when ditto. For the latter scenario, you need to be ready to act on any form of 'retaliation' - hints of aggression, bad language, playing music loudly, anything that is obviously done to harass. That's why you need to record how they react to the news, and also note down anything they do in response.

These sorts of folk need putting firmly back in their boxes.

Thank you! I am going to attempt once more to calmly explain and show them the deeds, then if that fails I will call our insurers. I wasn’t sure if that was pressing the nuclear button, but from our conversation the other day, they don’t seem reasonable people. As if any reasonable person would think it was ok to attach something to someone else’s house wall?! 

It seems like an awful lot of fuss and hassle over such a small space but I like things to be ‘right’, and it would just see off any trouble in the future if new owners wanted to extend their house. 

What actually happens when insurers get involved? Will they write to the neighbours and tell them to remove the panel? What if they still say no? I can imagine this being really stressful but I do think it needs sorting. Thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it! 

grumbler

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Do you have Leg Prot on your house insurance? Cool - good move. Call them up and they'll sort it.

Most likely, they won't as this happened before the insurance was bought and their main business is to find every excuse for doing nothing.

Jeepers_Creepers

Hmm, Grumbler might be right. This is a pre-existing situation.

It wouldn't be 'nuclear' in any case - LP would give fair warning. If they react badly, tough. You give them a fair chance to realise and accept they've done wrong, and give them the opportunity of putting it right. If they don't, you go 'legal' - or you simply remove that panel yourself. If they retaliate even by getting angry, you call the local Bobby. They won't accept what you say - 'cos they think they are special, entitled, have mysterious rights. And it often requires an authority figure to put them in their place. 

Going 'nuclear' would involve giving them (in writing) a week to remove it, and when they don't, you get a builder/fencer in to remove the panel, make good all the holes they made in your wall - and then you sue them for the total cost involved - MoneyClaim.org of Small Claims CC. You will almost certainly win.

If these folk don't listen to reason, then I am telling you that the leviathan needs to be brought down on them - it's the only thing they'll respond to. They just need to know they cannot get away with it, frankly the sooner the better. They will always, otherwise, try things on. Almost guaranteed.

They need to know that the new neighb isn't to be pushed around.

Jeepers_Creepers

If LegProt say they won't act as its pre-existing, they will still give you good advice on what to do.