New style ESA/ Carers allowance

Rubyroobs

Can anyone explain to me what would happen in the following situation please? Couple have a UC claim, husband receives LCWRA, wife receives Carers element. Wife also receives carers allowance but now her SSP has ended and she wants to claim New style ESA. Are Carers allowance and the ns ESA assessment rate both paid and then both deducted from the Uc claim or is  carers taken off the new style ESA first ? Husband also receives Ns ESA.  Sadly husband not likely to be here much longer. Would it be better for the wife just to cancel the Carers allowance claim and continue to claim the carers element?

Spoonie_Turtle

Rubyroobs said:

Can anyone explain to me what would happen in the following situation please? Couple have a UC claim, husband receives LCWRA, wife receives Carers element. Wife also receives carers allowance but now her SSP has ended and she wants to claim New style ESA. Are Carers allowance and the ns ESA assessment rate both paid and then both deducted from the Uc claim or is  carers taken off the new style ESA first ? Husband also receives Ns ESA.  Sadly husband not likely to be here much longer. Would it be better for the wife just to cancel the Carers allowance claim and continue to claim the carers element?

I believe CA and ESA are overlapping benefits, so wife would have an underlying entitlement to CA but not paid it, because ESA is worth more (which would be paid).  She can continue to claim the carers element.  I don't think they can claim 2xLCWRA if she were put in the support group, so the only change to UC would be taking her ESA into account instead of CA. 

Rubyroobs

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Rubyroobs said:

Can anyone explain to me what would happen in the following situation please? Couple have a UC claim, husband receives LCWRA, wife receives Carers element. Wife also receives carers allowance but now her SSP has ended and she wants to claim New style ESA. Are Carers allowance and the ns ESA assessment rate both paid and then both deducted from the Uc claim or is  carers taken off the new style ESA first ? Husband also receives Ns ESA.  Sadly husband not likely to be here much longer. Would it be better for the wife just to cancel the Carers allowance claim and continue to claim the carers element?

I believe CA and ESA are overlapping benefits, so wife would have an underlying entitlement to CA but not paid it, because ESA is worth more (which would be paid).  She can continue to claim the carers element.  I don't think they can claim 2xLCWRA if she were put in the support group, so the only change to UC would be taking her ESA into account instead of CA. 

Thanks, that makes sense. I was just worried that if 2 x ns esa and carers allowance were all paid seperately and then deducted from the UC, it could cancel out the UC claim altogether, but it makes sense that the CA just won't be paid. They can't claim 2 x LCWRA, I think sadly by the time she gets assessed and if awarded LCWRA, things will have changed. thanks for clarifying Spoonie, much appreciated.

calcotti

What ruby has said is exactly right. The ESA would be paid in priority to the CA. The make up of the UC maximum amount would not change but because the ESA is worth slightly more than the CA the amount of UC actually received will be slightly lower. if she hasn’t had one already claiming ESA will trigger a WCA for wife but even if she is found to have LCWRA she will not be paid the LCWRA element because only one such element can be paid to a couple and husband already gets it. She will still get the carer element. Nonetheless it will be helpful in the future if she has already been assessed.

Looking ahead. If husband dies the calculation of the maximum UC amount remains the same (as if he is still alive) for the assessment period in which death occurs and for the two following assessment periods. This means it is still calculated as a couple with his LCWRA element and her carer element. In the third complete assessment period after death the claim will change to a single claim and calculated accordingly.

Rubyroobs

calcotti said:

What ruby has said is exactly right. The ESA would be paid in priority to the CA. The make up of the UC maximum amount would not change but because the ESA is worth slightly more than the CA the amount of UC actually received will be slightly lower. if she hasn’t had one already claiming ESA will trigger a WCA for wife but even if she is found to have LCWRA she will not be paid the LCWRA element because only one such element can be paid to a couple and husband already gets it. She will still get the carer element. Nonetheless it will be helpful in the future if she has already been assessed.

Looking ahead. If husband dies the calculation of the maximum UC amount remains the same (as if he is still alive) for the assessment period in which death occurs and for the two following assessment periods. This means it is still calculated as a couple with his LCWRA element and her carer element. In the third complete assessment period after death the claim will change to a single claim and calculated accordingly.

Thanks Calcotti. Wife has already been sent UC50 from UC, so I'm assuming that assessment will not be duplicated for ESA. So can I just clarify , there is no need for her to cancel CA claim, it will just stop being paid and no longer be deducted from the Uc award. 

calcotti

Rubyroobs said: Thanks Calcotti. Wife has already been sent UC50 from UC, so I'm assuming that assessment will not be duplicated for ESA. So can I just clarify , there is no need for her to cancel CA claim, it will just stop being paid and no longer be deducted from the Uc award. 

When both ESA and UC are being claimed UC will take the lead in sorting out the WCA and the outcome applied to both claims - it will not be duplicated.
No need to cancel CA claim. She will retain an underlying entitlement to it (until such time as she is no longer caring). Just in case DWP do not join the dots it may be sensible tiring CA and let them know that a claim for ESA is being made (I can't recall whether the ESA claim form asks about other benefits in payment).

Rubyroobs

calcotti said:

Rubyroobs said: Thanks Calcotti. Wife has already been sent UC50 from UC, so I'm assuming that assessment will not be duplicated for ESA. So can I just clarify , there is no need for her to cancel CA claim, it will just stop being paid and no longer be deducted from the Uc award. 

When both ESA and UC are being claimed UC will take the lead in sorting out the WCA and the outcome applied to both claims - it will not be duplicated.
No need to cancel CA claim. She will retain an underlying entitlement to it (until such time as she is no longer caring). Just in case DWP do not join the dots it may be sensible tiring CA and let them know that a claim for ESA is being made (I can't recall whether the ESA claim form asks about other benefits in payment).

Thanks so much for your help.

Alice_Holt

calcotti said:

Rubyroobs said:   .... there is no need for her to cancel CA claim, it will just stop being paid and no longer be deducted from the Uc award. 

Just in case DWP do not join the dots... 

     I have seen a case when overlapping benefits (CA and Widowed Parents Allowance) have both been deducted from a UC claim, despite the CA being purely an underlying entitlement and not actually in payment. There was also an incorrect £8,000 overpayment raised by UC  in respect of previous year's CA underlying entitlements.
   Both UC and DWP debt management proved entirely ineffective in resolving the issue, with the claimant still having deductions despite her UC case manager admitting a "technical glitch" (and then disappearing from view).  It was only eventually sorted when the claimant contacted their local Citizens Advice and their MP.
   (To add insult to injury, DWP debt management managed to respond to a letter from the Citizens Advice office by sending a letter back that answered none of the points raised, but did, at least helpfully, suggest that the Citizens Advice advisor could contact Citizens Advice for assistance !!! ).    
   OP - Do keep an eye on your UC award to make sure a similar "technical glitch" doesn't happen to your claim.    

 

calcotti

Alice_Holt said:  I have seen a case when overlapping benefits (CA and Widowed Parents Allowance) have both been deducted from a UC claim, despite the CA being purely an underlying entitlement and not actually in payment. 

I have had similar issues in the past with Housing Benefit taking CA into account as if paid when only an underlying entitlement existing - that took a year to resolve.
Despite issues with UC we need to remember that what it replaces was also far from perfect.

Alice_Holt

calcotti said:

Alice_Holt said:  I have seen a case when overlapping benefits (CA and Widowed Parents Allowance) have both been deducted from a UC claim, despite the CA being purely an underlying entitlement and not actually in payment. 

I have had similar issues in the past with Housing Benefit taking CA into account as if paid when only an underlying entitlement existing - that took a year to resolve.
Despite issues with UC we need to remember that what it replaces was also far from perfect.

     Indeed. 
    The claimant's LA had issued a £1k overpayment demand for Council Tax, as the LA had also included the underlying CA as income in the calculation of CT reduction.  That, thankfully, was quickly resolved when the MP got involved.

    I suspect issue may have originated with info supplied by the CA unit to UC and the LA (but this was never fully explained). 

    Part of the problem for claimants is that when things go wrong the DWP systems CA / UC / ESA /etc don't seem able to communicate or work in collaboration. This claimant was directed by UC to speak to the CA unit (and given an incorrect telephone number). CA then directed them back to UC, etc,etc.
The only sensible (and sympathetic) conversation they reported was with a DWP employee administrating the Widowed Parent Allowance payments.
DWP debt management refused to accept that the incorrect overpayment demand arose from a disputed "technical glitch", UC hadn't withdrawn the instructions to DWP debt management despite a UC case manager telling the claimant of this "technical glitch", etc,etc.
No one within the DWP took any responsibility for trying to help a vulnerable "customer" until the point at which an explanation to a MP had to be written.  I presume a combination of high workload, poorly designed DWP systems (both IT and workflow), together with a silo mentality all contributed.   

But I would add that in years back it was possible to have a sensible conversation on an DWP escalation line with an experienced staff member who would actually try to resolve claimant's issues. Now, the current "helplines" are staffed by poorly paid call-handlers who have limited training, and face targets around call volumes.

calcotti

I think for HB and CTR the problem is that the computer information that local authorities access about DWP benefits has multiple sheets and/screens and the headline information can be misinterpreted if the user doesn’t fully know what they are doing. I don’t whether the UC feed to local authorities is better.

i imagine the computer interface that UC people have to interact with is quite complicated and given that a number of issues require manual intervention it does depend on the user having an understanding of the rules - which not all do for reasons highlighted in your last paragraph.

Recently had an issue where neither work coach nor case manager understood a particular issue and case manager said they couldn't do anything. Got somebody else to intervene and suddenly it was sorted but (with no acknowledgment of error).