Switched Live Sleeving

grumbler

fenwick458 said:

grumbler said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Mickey666 said:

In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

Still better that  brown&blue or red&black? And, AFAIK, such cable is used to connect a single light fitting (or a series) and in this case it doesn't matter which wire is switched.  Neither does it matter where the wire is connected to the switch or to a junction box.

ETA: Well, for wiring E27 or E14 it does matter.

  the type of bulb in the light fitting is irrelevant. 

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Mickey666 said:

In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

  I really can't think of a common scenario where you'd need to do this though

It is relevant. For E27/14 you don't want the switched live connected to the screw shell.

Jeepers_Creepers

fenwick458 said:

grumbler said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Mickey666 said:

In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

Still better that  brown&blue or red&black? And, AFAIK, such cable is used to connect a single light fitting (or a series) and in this case it doesn't matter which wire is switched.  Neither does it matter where the wire is connected to the switch or to a junction box.

ETA: Well, for wiring E27 or E14 it does matter.

It's used between the light fitting and the switch. the type of bulb in the light fitting is irrelevant. 

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Mickey666 said:

In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

you could always do a simple test to tell you which was permanent live if needed, I really can't think of a common scenario where you'd need to do this though

I stand doubly corrected :-)

fenwick458

grumbler said:

fenwick458 said:

grumbler said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Mickey666 said:

In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

Still better that  brown&blue or red&black? And, AFAIK, such cable is used to connect a single light fitting (or a series) and in this case it doesn't matter which wire is switched.  Neither does it matter where the wire is connected to the switch or to a junction box.

ETA: Well, for wiring E27 or E14 it does matter.

  the type of bulb in the light fitting is irrelevant. 

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Mickey666 said:

In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

  I really can't think of a common scenario where you'd need to do this though

It is relevant. For E27/14 you don't want the switched live connected to the screw shell.

you are not making any sense. the issue being discussed was "identifying switched live conductors" not "how do I wire up an edison screw light"
you seem to have gotten Switched live and permanent live confused with live and neutral...

Mickey666

In J_C's wiring diagram that shows twin brown to the light switch it would not be possible to identify the switched and permanently live.  If this is a 'bad thing' (or even against wiring regs?) then why have twin-brown cable at all?

As for the whole subject of visual identification - does any serious electrician really RELY on such things anyway?  I've always thought the maxim 'trust but verify' applies in such circumstances.  Thus, if I see a light switch wired with blue-brown cable with a brown sleeve on the blue, I might initially assume that the brown core is the permanent live and the brown-sleeved blue core is the switched live but I would NEVER rely on such an assumption and would always test it for absolute confirmation (if necessary).  There are too many 'DIY-cowboys' about to rely on anything - hence 'trust but verify'

Ectophile

Mickey666 said:

In J_C's wiring diagram that shows twin brown to the light switch it would not be possible to identify the switched and permanently live.  If this is a 'bad thing' (or even against wiring regs?) then why have twin-brown cable at all?

Does it matter?  If you wire the twin brown cable the opposite way round, it will have no effect on how the light switches.

Risteard

Mickey666 said:

Risteard said:

grumbler said:

Generally, you don't need any sleeves unless too much insulation was removed and you want to cover exposed copper. In this case IMO it's better to use brown.

This is not correct. Sleeving is not rated as insulation. Furthermore, it is a requirement of the Wiring Regulations that line (phase) conductors be correctly identified by colour, which for a single phase circuit must be brown (previously red). In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.

Where is 'this country'?

I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

Ireland.

oh_really

Tag the switch wire with a bit of insulating tape, I tend to use red

Mickey666

Ectophile said:

Mickey666 said:

In J_C's wiring diagram that shows twin brown to the light switch it would not be possible to identify the switched and permanently live.  If this is a 'bad thing' (or even against wiring regs?) then why have twin-brown cable at all?

Does it matter?  If you wire the twin brown cable the opposite way round, it will have no effect on how the light switches.

From a circuit perspective, of course not, but in that sense the colours of the wires don't matter either so why bother with them at all? 

Mickey666

oh_really said:

Tag the switch wire with a bit of insulating tape, I tend to use red

Hence my earlier comment about too many 'DIY-cowboys' 'trust but verify'