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Switched Live Sleeving

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Comments

  • grumbler
    grumbler Posts: 58,629 Forumite
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    edited 16 May 2021 at 11:03AM
    grumbler said:
    Mickey666 said:
    In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

    Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?


    Still better that  brown&blue or red&black? And, AFAIK, such cable is used to connect a single light fitting (or a series) and in this case it doesn't matter which wire is switched.  Neither does it matter where the wire is connected to the switch or to a junction box.
    ETA: Well, for wiring E27 or E14 it does matter.
      the type of bulb in the light fitting is irrelevant. 

    Mickey666 said:
    In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

    Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

      I really can't think of a common scenario where you'd need to do this though
    It is relevant. For E27/14 you don't want the switched live connected to the screw shell.

  • grumbler said:
    Mickey666 said:
    In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

    Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?


    Still better that  brown&blue or red&black? And, AFAIK, such cable is used to connect a single light fitting (or a series) and in this case it doesn't matter which wire is switched.  Neither does it matter where the wire is connected to the switch or to a junction box.
    ETA: Well, for wiring E27 or E14 it does matter.
    It's used between the light fitting and the switch. the type of bulb in the light fitting is irrelevant. 

    Mickey666 said:
    In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

    Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

    you could always do a simple test to tell you which was permanent live if needed, I really can't think of a common scenario where you'd need to do this though

    I stand doubly corrected :-)
  • fenwick458
    fenwick458 Posts: 1,522 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    grumbler said:
    grumbler said:
    Mickey666 said:
    In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

    Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?


    Still better that  brown&blue or red&black? And, AFAIK, such cable is used to connect a single light fitting (or a series) and in this case it doesn't matter which wire is switched.  Neither does it matter where the wire is connected to the switch or to a junction box.
    ETA: Well, for wiring E27 or E14 it does matter.
      the type of bulb in the light fitting is irrelevant. 

    Mickey666 said:
    In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?

    Twin brown (or red) surely wouldn't tell you which one was permanently live? So perhaps not such a good idea?

      I really can't think of a common scenario where you'd need to do this though
    It is relevant. For E27/14 you don't want the switched live connected to the screw shell.

    you are not making any sense. the issue being discussed was "identifying switched live conductors" not "how do I wire up an edison screw light"
    you seem to have gotten Switched live and permanent live confused with live and neutral...
  • Mickey666
    Mickey666 Posts: 2,834 Forumite
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    In J_C's wiring diagram that shows twin brown to the light switch it would not be possible to identify the switched and permanently live.  If this is a 'bad thing' (or even against wiring regs?) then why have twin-brown cable at all?

    As for the whole subject of visual identification - does any serious electrician really RELY on such things anyway?  I've always thought the maxim 'trust but verify' applies in such circumstances.  Thus, if I see a light switch wired with blue-brown cable with a brown sleeve on the blue, I might initially assume that the brown core is the permanent live and the brown-sleeved blue core is the switched live but I would NEVER rely on such an assumption and would always test it for absolute confirmation (if necessary).  There are too many 'DIY-cowboys' about to rely on anything - hence 'trust but verify' ;)
  • Ectophile
    Ectophile Posts: 8,096 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    edited 16 May 2021 at 8:28PM
    Mickey666 said:
    In J_C's wiring diagram that shows twin brown to the light switch it would not be possible to identify the switched and permanently live.  If this is a 'bad thing' (or even against wiring regs?) then why have twin-brown cable at all?
    Does it matter?  If you wire the twin brown cable the opposite way round, it will have no effect on how the light switches.
    If it sticks, force it.
    If it breaks, well it wasn't working right anyway.
  • Risteard
    Risteard Posts: 2,000 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    Mickey666 said:
    Risteard said:
    grumbler said:
    Generally, you don't need any sleeves unless too much insulation was removed and you want to cover exposed copper. In this case IMO it's better to use brown.


    This is not correct. Sleeving is not rated as insulation. Furthermore, it is a requirement of the Wiring Regulations that line (phase) conductors be correctly identified by colour, which for a single phase circuit must be brown (previously red). In this country we use twin brown for switch drops (and previously twin red). It's a poor practice in my opinion how England uses brown and blue for these.
    Where is 'this country'?
    I'm guessing not England because I've never lived in a house in England that had twin brown or red cables for switch drops.

    Sounds like a good idea though, so why is it so rare in England?  Perhaps because sleeving is permitted, meaning that fewer types of cable need to be stocked?


    Ireland.
  • oh_really
    oh_really Posts: 907 Forumite
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    Tag the switch wire with a bit of insulating tape, I tend to use red
  • Mickey666
    Mickey666 Posts: 2,834 Forumite
    1,000 Posts Photogenic First Anniversary Name Dropper
    Ectophile said:
    Mickey666 said:
    In J_C's wiring diagram that shows twin brown to the light switch it would not be possible to identify the switched and permanently live.  If this is a 'bad thing' (or even against wiring regs?) then why have twin-brown cable at all?
    Does it matter?  If you wire the twin brown cable the opposite way round, it will have no effect on how the light switches.
    From a circuit perspective, of course not, but in that sense the colours of the wires don't matter either so why bother with them at all?  ;)
  • Mickey666
    Mickey666 Posts: 2,834 Forumite
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    oh_really said:
    Tag the switch wire with a bit of insulating tape, I tend to use red
    Hence my earlier comment about too many 'DIY-cowboys' 'trust but verify'  
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