CRA 2015 s62 10 Defence - No real opportunity of becoming acquainted with T&Cs

FizzyCharlie

Coupon-mad said:

Add in the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds' article about grace periods and observation periods (Google it) which makes it clear that the trade body's view was that the initial period was a fluid time, dependant upon the facts of the car park.

Also add in the transcript of HMRC v NCP (search this forum for 'green button'.  Add that important wording.

Thank you so much! Will have a look at lunchtime and get it in the post after work - or is it okay to email it to DCBL? Will check Newbies for info... :-)

Jenni_D

Email the WS to the court, and if previous interaction with DCBL has been via email then email it to them too (in the same email as you send to the court).

Coupon-mad

Yep, no posting it.

Find the local county court email and copy in DCBLegal (they use emails such as 'paul@' and 'danielle@').

FizzyCharlie

Thanks for confirming  @Jenni_D and @Coupon-mad, that's given me the weekend to add those points you've suggested!

FizzyCharlie

Coupon-mad said:

Add in the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds' article about grace periods and observation periods (Google it) which makes it clear that the trade body's view was that the initial period was a fluid time, dependant upon the facts of the car park.

Also add in the transcript of HMRC v NCP (search this forum for 'green button'.  Add that important wording.

Thanks again for this @Coupon-mad, I've had a go at phrasing these to suit my case - If anyone could take a look at these additions and let me know if they work for or against me that would be much appreciated!

8.         Even if such ‘enforcement signs’ existed, and IPC mandatory Code on signage had been met, which there is no evidence for, in the case of National Car Parks Limited vs The commissioner for her majesty’s revenue and customs (2019) A3/2017/2435 Lord Justice Newey states that ‘the precise figure was settled when the customer inserted her pound coin and 50p piece into the machine and then elected to press the green button rather than cancelling the transaction. The best analysis would seem to be that the contract was brought into being when the green button was pressed.’ Therefore, the contract in a pay and display ticket machine car park cannot possibly begin upon driving in, not least because at that point the driver has no idea whether the tariff is 50p or £50 until they stand in front of the machine & signs and, in my case, be aware of the payment options and accessibility to these payment options.

10.       I pride myself on making every attempt to follow rules, both on a legal and moral basis, sometimes to my own detriment. I can categorically state that at all times I intended to, and did, make payment for parking (exhibit XX-06) meeting or exceeding the required payment (£1.10 for 2h) for the time at which I entered the carpark (1:02:30PM) to the time I left (2:06:07PM), a total parking time of 1 hour and 5 minutes. While the Claimant alleges that I breached the 10 minute period from entering the car park to paying, which I was not aware of, the BPA implies this is not a condition that motorists can be expected to meet. Kelvin Reynolds, BPA Director of Corporate Affairs, in a ‘Membership Update’ (https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods) explains that for the observation period “No time limit is specified.  This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.” and “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules.” Given the lack of dedicated Wi-Fi in the car park, and the reliance on mobile signal, to meet the Claimants requirements to purchase a ticket via the online system they would have to give sufficient time to do this, including finding reliable Wi-Fi/mobile internet. 

FizzyCharlie

Coupon-mad said:

Yep, no posting it.

Find the local county court email and copy in DCBLegal (they use emails such as 'paul@' and 'danielle@').

I've got the court email, just trying to track down the best email for DCBLegal... I have one info@dcblegal.co.uk or should I put it with the name of the legal rep (i.e. Yasmine@dcblegal.co.uk) such as the examples you've given above? Found a similar thread somewhere else, should be fine, sorry!

Coupon-mad

Looks fine except I would make 'While...' onwards a new paragraph.

FizzyCharlie

Coupon-mad said:

Looks fine except I would make 'While...' onwards a new paragraph.

Perfect, thanks! I'll get this re-numbered, send it off tomorrow and wait for the next step...!

1505grandad

"Add in the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds' article about grace periods and observation periods (Google it) which makes it clear that the trade body's view was that the initial period was a fluid time, dependant upon the facts of the car park."

Apologies if I have misunderstood but I believe the claimant I Park Services Ltd trade body is IPC. So should the references to BPA in para 10 be included?

FizzyCharlie

1505grandad said:

"Add in the BPA's Kelvin Reynolds' article about grace periods and observation periods (Google it) which makes it clear that the trade body's view was that the initial period was a fluid time, dependant upon the facts of the car park."

Apologies if I have misunderstood but I believe the claimant I Park Services Ltd trade body is IPC. So should the references to BPA in para 10 be included?

You are correct, thanks for checking - Could it still be relevant as it is the opinion of an association (maybe not the correct one) or do you think the Claimant/Judge will just dismiss it?