Boundary upset after surveyor

Tigertailor

Jeepers_Creepers said:

TT, you have LP - great.

You've employed a surveyor - great.

And you are diplomatic - great.

The true boundary result is also great! I don't understand the bit that dismayed you up at your house, tho' - your sketch isn't clear enough.

Anyhoo, time to be diplomatically firm. Decide on your mantra, such as "I'm afraid you have got the boundaries wrong - this is the result of the survey I've had carried out. It's very clear. If you don't accept it, please have your own survey carried out... Meanwhile, you are going to have to remove x, y and z. I don't want to fall out with you at all - I like getting on with my neighbours - but I am going to ensure that the boundaries are understood so we can both just get on and do what we want on our own land with no more confusion."

That's the measure of it - there can be no argument. Kept returning to that mantra, regardless of how he might try and take the conversation sideways; "I only allowed the previous owner to put his summerhouse there 'cos I was kind but he always knew it was always temporary..." that kind of stuff. Just bring it back to the survey - and tell him to have his own done if he wants. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Then tell him what you intend to do with the wall and bits on your land.

Any protest, any threat or retaliation, call up your LP and explain what's happening. In the first instance it'll almost certainly be a 'cease and desist' type letter - with the threat of actual legal action should he fail to do so. I think that'll sober him up.

Thank-you so much for this! Thisis great! and that mantra is very good and a great place to start, if I can get them to engage with me of course!!

The part I think you are referring to about being dismayed is perhaps just my shocked reaction to what was in front of me. Where the actual boundary is to what he said and insisted was his. He has landscaped and redecorated and redone that whole area, the steps and garden and the one side of his deck pillars and on reflection, he has also attached depart or that deck to my house wall! I feel like an idiot! 

Disjoint

You should feel like an idiot. You don't like confrontation, a friend and client of mine for who I manage a property is exactly like you. Just too nice for his own good - I have to do the shouting on his behalf. Your neigbhor is an a... hole and needs to be dealt as one.

As Jeepers said: refer to the survey, show him the survey. You said he is familiar with the process, he is stealing your land in broad daylight. However, where I disagree is that I don't think you should do it yourself, you sound too nice for it. I would get a solicitor involved or a third party to deal with this dispute. This will work you up too much. The relationship is ruined and he is a basterd anyways, what's the point of trying to salvage anything. As long as you don't go to the council and have them go after his illegal additions to his house, it will likely just stay a frosty relationship (if you have him do changes that don't affect your land, he then might hold a bigger grudge against you - I know I do after a neighbor complained after I extended my loft by an extra 10cm in height... But I would get a solicitor to write everything, and get a crew of builders to sort out a fence and reclaim your land on the back of this.

You need support as you clearly can't deal with it yourself.

Section62

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Anyhoo, time to be diplomatically firm. Decide on your mantra, such as "I'm afraid you have got the boundaries wrong - this is the result of the survey I've had carried out. It's very clear. If you don't accept it, please have your own survey carried out... Meanwhile, you are going to have to remove x, y and z. I don't want to fall out with you at all - I like getting on with my neighbours - but I am going to ensure that the boundaries are understood so we can both just get on and do what we want on our own land with no more confusion."

OP, I can't stress enough how ^^that^^ is the right approach to adopt. Ignore the people who are being rude about you, or suggest you go in bull in china shop mode.

You now have your understanding of where the boundary should be, but the neighbour still has his, and it isn't impossible that he will have documentary evidence that would cause a different surveyor to come to an alternative view on where the boundary should be. If this goes 'legal' then you don't want the neighbour's solicitor submitting photos in evidence of you running around your neighbour's garden with a pickaxe. It isn't a good look.

There is another dimension to this problem in that the curtilage of a listed building survives changes in land ownership (as the neighbour discovered with his garage scheme).

So it may mean if the boundary is moved to where your surveyor thinks it should be, the local planning authority might take the view that strip of land remains within the curtilage of a listed building for planning purposes. Depending on the exact circumstances you might decide that hassle is simply not worth it for any benefit the additional land provides.

If you decide to erect a boundary feature you'll need to consult the conservation officer to make sure they are happy with what you propose. If it was me, that would probably be my next step - getting the conservation officer involved in both the boundary position and type, and in the (presumably) unauthorised building work. (assuming you are squeaky clean on that front)

You might also want to enquire why on earth they haven't progressed the enforcement action over the garage - the neighbour was really taking the proverbial doing that and I'd be amazed if the planning authority let it slide.

brianposter

Tigertailor said:

I did and I watched as did my neighbour, the use of a couple of pieces of different equipment. and then him place stakes in.
I am not sure what you would like me say here? Do I need to explain the surveyors job to my neighbour? He took my surveyors card for a job he had in mind at a separate property (not that I think thats why he really asked for it) and he is not new to surveying as he confessed himself.

Given that there may be more than one version of the boundary it is a good idea to know why your surveyor chose his starting point(s) of reference and why he thought the boundary should have a particular size and shape.

Tigertailor

Section62 said:

Jeepers_Creepers said:

Anyhoo, time to be diplomatically firm. Decide on your mantra, such as "I'm afraid you have got the boundaries wrong - this is the result of the survey I've had carried out. It's very clear. If you don't accept it, please have your own survey carried out... Meanwhile, you are going to have to remove x, y and z. I don't want to fall out with you at all - I like getting on with my neighbours - but I am going to ensure that the boundaries are understood so we can both just get on and do what we want on our own land with no more confusion."

OP, I can't stress enough how ^^that^^ is the right approach to adopt. Ignore the people who are being rude about you, or suggest you go in bull in china shop mode.

You now have your understanding of where the boundary should be, but the neighbour still has his, and it isn't impossible that he will have documentary evidence that would cause a different surveyor to come to an alternative view on where the boundary should be. If this goes 'legal' then you don't want the neighbour's solicitor submitting photos in evidence of you running around your neighbour's garden with a pickaxe. It isn't a good look.

There is another dimension to this problem in that the curtilage of a listed building survives changes in land ownership (as the neighbour discovered with his garage scheme).

So it may mean if the boundary is moved to where your surveyor thinks it should be, the local planning authority might take the view that strip of land remains within the curtilage of a listed building for planning purposes. Depending on the exact circumstances you might decide that hassle is simply not worth it for any benefit the additional land provides.

If you decide to erect a boundary feature you'll need to consult the conservation officer to make sure they are happy with what you propose. If it was me, that would probably be my next step - getting the conservation officer involved in both the boundary position and type, and in the (presumably) unauthorised building work. (assuming you are squeaky clean on that front)

You might also want to enquire why on earth they haven't progressed the enforcement action over the garage - the neighbour was really taking the proverbial doing that and I'd be amazed if the planning authority let it slide.

Thank-you for this post.

The point of curtilage is very good and certainly comes in to play. Calling on the conservation officer to assess what he think we can out there as fencing etc would certainly attract all the wrong attention for my neighbour.

As someone quoted before, bringing extra attention to the situation would have disasterous affects most likely for the neighbour plus bring more ire... unfortunately even without this boundary situation by the houses, we would have needed the conservation officer to come to ok any boundary fencing we wanted so it fell within the conservation rules and/or the curtilage.

Since the neighbour is avoiding us at all costs right now, discussion is difficult when I tried to catch them, I have quite obviously been ignored and grimaced at. At least they haven't removed the stakes!