Fly tipping fine

akwales

Daughter has just moved to London and received fine of £400 for flytipping. Her rubbish collection day is Monday and she put rubbish out at 7am before going away for couple of days m. Noticed it hadn’t been collected on Weds when she returned but didn’t do anything as not sure what to do. Letter from council came after with £400 fine or threat of going to court. This also informed her that rubbish should be left out 6.30pm sun to 6.30am mon. She knows that technically she is in wrong but it does seem harsh for genuine error and first offence. Is there anything she can do - she has been in council to explain situation 

Slithery

Pay the fine?

moneysavinghero

What did the council say? As they explained the times for putting the rubbish out it appears that the council accept that this was not a deliberate attempt at flytipping. Not sure whether this would hold any weight in court or not. What could the fine go upto if it goes to court?

HampshireH

You saying she knew that it hasn't been collected and then left it there beyond her return on the Wednesday.

The delay Monday to wednesday not collected was not deliberate but from her returning and not doing anything with it was a conscious choice.

How long do she leave it there? To The following week?

It's a deterrent. Imagine if everyone left their rubbish out for a week.

I think she needs to chalk this one up to experience.

moneysavinghero

A quick google says

The maximum fine for fly-tippingis £50,000 and/or a five-year prison sentence. But 83% of the court-imposed fines in the last six years were below £500

So you could try and take your chance in court and most likely you would not face a fine materially more than the £400. Doubt the council would even bother taking it to court, they just want you to hand over £400 willingly.

sevenhills

akwales said:

Daughter has just moved to London and received fine of £400 for flytipping. Her rubbish collection day is Monday and she put rubbish out at 7am before going away for couple of days m. Noticed it hadn’t been collected on Weds when she returned but didn’t do anything as not sure what to do. Letter from council came after with £400 fine or threat of going to court.

Certain authorities have started cracking down on people who leave their wheelie bins out in the street for longer than necessary, as these could cause an obstruction to neighbours — especially those with wheelchairs, pushchairs, or sight and mobility issues. The fine is often anything up to £100.

So was this a wheelie bin, or something else?

Freya36

This happened to me recently (except my bins were only on the street an hour after they were supposed to be collected but weren't) - your only options are to pay the fine or go to court, councils don't allow appeals. The fine is actually a payment to stop them from taking you to court. They don't make a judgement on whether you actually did it or not or care if you can prove you followed the rules - that's something you'd have to prove in court, but then your costs could be much higher. It seems unfair to me too!

Section62

sevenhills said:

So was this a wheelie bin, or something else?

^^^This.

There's a difference between leaving a wheelie bin out at the wrong time and leaving bags of rubbish on the footway. If the penalty was given solely for leaving a wheelie bin out incorrectly I'd be more inclined to challenge it than if it was bagged rubbish. I'd also check the exact wording of the penalty to make sure the correct alleged offence has been stated.

Also, if she's only just moved in and this was the first collection day - does that imply there was a larger than normal amount of rubbish due to there being removal detritus, or else items that shouldn't be included for the household refuse collection (e.g. electronics/electrical items)

Section62

Freya36 said:

This happened to me recently (except my bins were only on the street an hour after they were supposed to be collected but weren't) - your only options are to pay the fine or go to court, councils don't allow appeals. The fine is actually a payment to stop them from taking you to court.

The 'fine' is actually an invitation to pay a penalty sum to avoid any further action being taken. For people who are guilty of the alleged offence (which usually is most of them) then a FPN is a much cheaper and involves far less hassle than the traditional approach of prosecution.

There is usually no 'appeal' as such because the FPN is not a penalty itself.

The process varies depending on the alleged offence and the council involved, but there is usually a process of making 'representations' or attending 'interview under caution' in which someone who has a genuine case can seek to have the FPN withdrawn without going to court. That normally only applies in certain circumstances - for example if there is a procedural error in the way the FPN was issued.

Freya36 said:

They don't make a judgement on whether you actually did it or not or care if you can prove you followed the rules - that's something you'd have to prove in court, but then your costs could be much higher. It seems unfair to me too!

Councils do care if a FPN has been incorrectly issued. They don't want to progress a case to court and find the FPN was invalid.

But there is a difference between a FPN being invalid and someone feeling a penalty wasn't fair because [insert mitigation of choice].

The costs involved in going to court are inevitably higher because more people will be involved and paperwork has to be prepared. That is an inherent drawback of any process which involves court action. The FPN process allows the guilty to avoid excessive costs that going to court would involve - but in most situations councils will still consider prosecution (rather than a FPN) for repeat offenders or in more serious cases.

Freya36

Apologies, that was my summary of what I was told by the council when I tried to appeal. Sorry if this sounds really thick, but what would be the difference between a FPN being invalid and someone feeling that it was unfair? If the bins are there because the council didn't collect them, is that an example of it being invalid, or just someone thinking it's unfair?

moneysavinghero

Invalid = There is no legal basis for the FPN to be issued
Unfair = The FPN was legally issued, you just don't think it's fair given the circumstances

This is the governement guideance:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/household-waste-bins-when-and-how-councils-may-issue-fixed-penalties

So according to that guidance i would say that Freyas FPN was Invalid as it does not comply with the government advice:

1. It was only for a few hours
2. They did not issue you with a written warning or notice of intent before they issued the FPN