LPoA Changes and Ownership of Property

ManicRower

Hi, 

Asking questions about two separate issues on behalf of a friend:

My friend has recently discovered that her Grandmother's Lasting Power of Attorney's are her Daughter (my friend's Mum) and her daughter's Husband. The issue is that these have been set up jointly and severally so theoretically the Husband could independently make decisions about her Grandmother without my Daughter's Mum knowing, and this doesn't sit well. My friend is going to discuss the implications with her Grandmother to ascertain if she understood this when the LPoA was written, however if as expected this isn't quite what she wanted is it possible to:

- Amend the LPoA to add my friend (the granddaughter) and/or remove the Husband? Or does a new LPoA need to be written to overwrite the existing one?
- If it is possible, who is notified? i.e. would the Husband receive notification that my friend has been added and/or that he has been removed, or that a new LPoA has overwritten the existing one?
- Approximate costs for amending an LPoA or writing a new one (I'm imagining £200-£500 as a ball park?)

Separately, my friend was under the impression there was a will stating that on her Grandmother's passing, her house would pass to my friend. What is actually in place is a document stating my friend currently co-owns her Grandmother's house in trust along with her Grandmother and Mother, and has done for the last 6 years. If her Grandmother passes away, the house then passes to my friend in it's entirety, if my friend passes away before her Grandmother then the house passes to my friend's two children. 
- Are there any legal/financial considerations my friend needs to address given she has part-owned a house for ~6 years without realising? It's mortgage-free and worth max £70k if that makes any difference. 
- Should she have documentation relating to this? Aside from a solicitor's letting confirming this to be the case she doesnt seem to have any 'official' deeds/trust documentation?

Keep_pedalling

Jointly and severally is the normal and recommended route to take. Attorneys having to act jointly can lead to major issues, and if one dies or becomes incapacitated the whole LPA fails. A donor can remove an attorney but can’t add a new one, but frankly other than worrying about the theoretical things the husband might do is no reason he should be removed, and the decision about who to appoint as attorneys is entirely do the donor, so your friend really should not be trying to influence her GM to change the current arrangements.

As to the house, was this transfer made by her GM or was it but into trust from the will of her grandfather?

ManicRower

Keep_pedalling said:

Jointly and severally is the normal and recommended route to take. Attorneys having to act jointly can lead to major issues, and if one dies or becomes incapacitated the whole LPA fails. A donor can remove an attorney but can’t add a new one, but frankly other than worrying about the theoretical things the husband might do is no reason he should be removed, and the decision about who to appoint as attorneys is entirely do the donor, so your friend really should not be trying to influence her GM to change the current arrangements.

As to the house, was this transfer made by her GM or was it but into trust from the will of her grandfather?

Thanks for your response, so:
- Grandmother could remove daughter's husband from LPA if she wishes to do so. Any idea if he would be notified of this change?
- Grandmother cannot add daughter to existing LPA.....so I'm assuming this would need to be a new LPA if it was the route the grandmother chose?

Regarding house:
- The transfer was made 6 years ago by her Grandmother, who is still alive

xylophone

Does your friend mean that her late Grandfather was the sole proprietor of the property and that his will created  an  Immediate Post Death Interest in Possession Trust? 

Grandmother, daughter and granddaughter would be the Trustees of the Trust whose terms would have allowed Grandmother to live in the property (and possibly downsize/benefit from income arising on any invested capital arising from downsizing etc).

The ultimate beneficiaries on Grandmother's death would have been the "remaindermen" - the daughter/granddaughter/heirs of either as appropriate.

If your friend is unsure of her exact position, she should consult the solicitor responsible for drafting the will/Trust Deed and/or conveying the property into the names of the Trustees (if indeed this is what has happened).

Keep_pedalling

ManicRower said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Jointly and severally is the normal and recommended route to take. Attorneys having to act jointly can lead to major issues, and if one dies or becomes incapacitated the whole LPA fails. A donor can remove an attorney but can’t add a new one, but frankly other than worrying about the theoretical things the husband might do is no reason he should be removed, and the decision about who to appoint as attorneys is entirely do the donor, so your friend really should not be trying to influence her GM to change the current arrangements.

As to the house, was this transfer made by her GM or was it but into trust from the will of her grandfather?

Thanks for your response, so:
- Grandmother could remove daughter's husband from LPA if she wishes to do so. Any idea if he would be notified of this change?
- Grandmother cannot add daughter to existing LPA.....so I'm assuming this would need to be a new LPA if it was the route the grandmother chose?

Regarding house:
- The transfer was made 6 years ago by her Grandmother, who is still alive

I have to confess that I originally thought you were referring to the GMs husband not your friend’s husband, which is why I made the comment on influencing the GM to change the LPA. To do a partial revocation you do have to notify the all the attorneys of the change.

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/change-your-lasting-power-of-attorney

As for the house, it sounds like this may have been done in an attempt to avoid having to obtain probate or a misguided attempt to protect half of the value from potential care costs. The latter won’t work and the former will cost your friend her first time buyer status if she does not already own her own home.

getmore4less

ManicRower said:

Hi, 

Asking questions about two separate issues on behalf of a friend:

My friend has recently discovered that her Grandmother's Lasting Power of Attorney's are her Daughter (my friend's Mum) and her Husband. The issue is that these have been set up jointly and severally so theoretically the Husband could independently make decisions about her Grandmother without my Daughter's Mum knowing, and this doesn't sit well. My friend is going to discuss the implications with her Grandmother to ascertain if she understood this when the LPoA was written, however if as expected this isn't quite what she wanted is it possible to:

- Amend the LPoA to add my friend (the granddaughter) and/or remove the Husband? Or does a new LPoA need to be written to overwrite the existing one?
- If it is possible, who is notified? i.e. would the Husband receive notification that my friend has been added and/or that he has been removed, or that a new LPoA has overwritten the existing one?
- Approximate costs for amending an LPoA or writing a new one (I'm imagining £200-£500 as a ball park?)

Separately, my friend was under the impression there was a will stating that on her Grandmother's passing, her house would pass to my friend. What is actually in place is a document stating my friend currently co-owns her Grandmother's house in trust along with her Grandmother and Mother, and has done for the last 6 years. If her Grandmother passes away, the house then passes to my friend in it's entirety, if my friend passes away before her Grandmother then the house passes to my friend's two children. 
- Are there any legal/financial considerations my friend needs to address given she has part-owned a house for ~6 years without realising? It's mortgage-free and worth max £70k if that makes any difference. 
- Should she have documentation relating to this? Aside from a solicitor's letting confirming this to be the case she doesnt seem to have any 'official' deeds/trust documentation?

Depends how that came about and what the trust actually says need more details.

if as suggested by xylophone  it was the result of a will(IPDI trust) then it should be OK but if not there may be complications.

ManicRower

Keep_pedalling said:

ManicRower said:

Keep_pedalling said:

Jointly and severally is the normal and recommended route to take. Attorneys having to act jointly can lead to major issues, and if one dies or becomes incapacitated the whole LPA fails. A donor can remove an attorney but can’t add a new one, but frankly other than worrying about the theoretical things the husband might do is no reason he should be removed, and the decision about who to appoint as attorneys is entirely do the donor, so your friend really should not be trying to influence her GM to change the current arrangements.

As to the house, was this transfer made by her GM or was it but into trust from the will of her grandfather?

Thanks for your response, so:
- Grandmother could remove daughter's husband from LPA if she wishes to do so. Any idea if he would be notified of this change?
- Grandmother cannot add daughter to existing LPA.....so I'm assuming this would need to be a new LPA if it was the route the grandmother chose?

Regarding house:
- The transfer was made 6 years ago by her Grandmother, who is still alive

I have to confess that I originally thought you were referring to the GMs husband not your friend’s husband, which is why I made the comment on influencing the GM to change the LPA. To do a partial revocation you do have to notify the all the attorneys of the change.

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/change-your-lasting-power-of-attorney

As for the house, it sounds like this may have been done in an attempt to avoid having to obtain probate or a misguided attempt to protect half of the value from potential care costs. The latter won’t work and the former will cost your friend her first time buyer status if she does not already own her own home.

Sorry for the confusion I've edited accordingly. The worry is that the daughter's husband may be able to make independent decisions about the doner without notifying blood relatives (my friend and her mum). Your clarification around notification makes sense. 

Regarding property, timeline was:
- Bought a flat to live in
- Owned a partial share in grandmother's house (but wasn't fully aware)
- Sold flat and bought a house to live in

elsien

It is grandmother’s choice who she has as LPA. Blood relatives don’t take priority. 

If she trusted him enough to make him LPA that is her choice and she clearly had her reasons.

Good practice would dictate that all the attorneys would be involved in major decisions. Do you have any reason to think this may not be the case, other than your friend’s  nose being out of joint? 

Clearly your friend’s name mother is aware who the other attorney is and is fine with that. As is the grandmother. Your friend should consider very carefully before pressuring her grandmother to change things. 

Seriously, what on earth does she think he’s going to do?
Also to add I’ve seen my fair share of blood relatives ripping their elderly relatives off. It’s about the person and their character and skills, not whether they are directly related.