ESA Permitted work - trigger an unwanted move to UC?

DressingDown

Hope you can help me.

Am on lifelong chemotherapy but have stabilised and I'd like to do a few hours work per week, self-employed from home. Worried that this might trigger a review or be seen as a change of circumsatnces and trigger an automatic move to UC, which I don't want; I'll be a lot worse off. 

I claim the following:

ESA (Cont) Support Group (chemo means I am automatically placed in the support group)
Child Tax Credits. 
PIP enhanced for both daily care and mobility.
Small private pension.

I have over £16K savings so do not want to move to UC under any circumstances as I won't get anything.
I am a single parent.

MY ESA form from 18months ago states I had a DS1500 and "will never be able to work again" (Dr said this at the time). But I have stabilised and have tried to do a bit of non-paid stuff just for myself over the last 2 months to see if I could cope, and I think I could do a few hours per week.  It would earn less than £143 pw.

Questions:

1) The work I want to do is all computer-based and I would have help from accountants for the admin - but would me doing this type of work contradict my claim form that stated I could "never work again"? (That is what I was told by my doctor at the time). Would that land me in trouble? Would I stay in the Support Group because I am still on chemo?

2) Would this trigger a change to UC? If not, why not - is there a link as I can't make head nor tail of the rules?!

3) if it works really well and I earn over £143pw I know I will lose ESA. Is THAT a "change of circumstances" triggering a move to UC? If not, why not, please?

4) if I go over the max income for Child Tax Credits of around £16k I'll get some Working Tax Credits including some extra disability payments within it. Why does that not constitute a "change of circumstances" that triggers a move to UC?

I asked citizens advice bureau and they said that ANY change could trigger a review and also a "change of circumstances", triggering a move to UC.  If my medical situ deterioates I would want a seamless transfer back to being on ESA (Cont) Support Group + Child Tax Credits + PIP. I don't want to move to be worse off from working a few hours Permitted Work per week if it means I lose the Tax Credits and get moved to UC; I would be £600 less well off per month.

Thank you for your help.

Spoonie_Turtle

There is no "triggering a change to UC".  The only way you would 'move to' UC would be if you put in a claim for it yourself, which obviously you're not going to do while you have savings above the threshold.

If you go over the hours or earnings permitted for ESA your claim will end. Whether you can later reclaim ESA if your hours/earnings go back down will depend on whether you earn enough to pay NI contributions (or be credited with NI credits) for long enough after your claim ended.

The only "trigger" for UC would be if you were to put in a claim for UC yourself, which would then automatically end your tax credits.  

You may qualify for WTC as you already have a CTC claim; I don't know the specifics (other posters here do and can help you with that).

Sorry this doesn't directly answer your Qs.  I'll have a look at chemo/Support Group rules unless anyone responds specifically regarding that in the meantime. 

EDIT:  re Q1, doesn't matter if you are working or not, you are correct that having chemo means automatically put into the Support Group.  Whether in practice it would trigger a reassessment I don't know, but given that you will still be having chemotherapy even if that were to happen, you shouldn't have to worry.  So the ONLY thing that would end your claim, if you continue to be treated with chemo, would be you working too many hours or earning too much for Permitted Work.
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/866944/admg3.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjw8e3jwIPwAhWXgP0HHTR0CucQFjAAegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw1hzAxkapQD2_4vUEXWmO7q)

DressingDown

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is no "triggering a change to UC".  The only way you would 'move to' UC would be if you put in a claim for it yourself, which obviously you're not going to do while you have savings above the threshold.

If you go over the hours or earnings permitted for ESA your claim will end. Whether you can later reclaim ESA if your hours/earnings go back down will depend on whether you earn enough to pay NI contributions (or be credited with NI credits) for long enough after your claim ended.

The only "trigger" for UC would be if you were to put in a claim for UC yourself, which would then automatically end your tax credits.  

You may qualify for WTC as you already have a CTC claim; I don't know the specifics (other posters here do and can help you with that).

Sorry this doesn't directly answer your Qs.  I'll have a look at chemo/Support Group rules unless anyone responds specifically regarding that in the meantime. 

Thanks for this. Yes I'd be really grateful if you could let me know about chemo/support group rules as I am not sure I ahev interpreted them correctly.

I basically dread wanting to do something good (working for a few hours per week) that results in something bad happening (getting into trouble or having to move to UC).

I THINK that if I managed to earn enough and over 16 hours per week then I would get some WTC. That's great in principle. BUT if my health takes a downtown and I have to stop working, I think I read that my only option then would be a move to UC - I could NOT move from earning enough for WTC to apply and then move back down to Child Tax Credits only. Hence losing hundreds per month compared to now when I don't work at all. Can anyone confirm? If so then there is no motivation at all to work more than 16 hours per week ever, surely?!

Spoonie_Turtle

DressingDown said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is no "triggering a change to UC".  The only way you would 'move to' UC would be if you put in a claim for it yourself, which obviously you're not going to do while you have savings above the threshold.

If you go over the hours or earnings permitted for ESA your claim will end. Whether you can later reclaim ESA if your hours/earnings go back down will depend on whether you earn enough to pay NI contributions (or be credited with NI credits) for long enough after your claim ended.

The only "trigger" for UC would be if you were to put in a claim for UC yourself, which would then automatically end your tax credits.  

You may qualify for WTC as you already have a CTC claim; I don't know the specifics (other posters here do and can help you with that).

Sorry this doesn't directly answer your Qs.  I'll have a look at chemo/Support Group rules unless anyone responds specifically regarding that in the meantime. 

Thanks for this. Yes I'd be really grateful if you could let me know about chemo/support group rules as I am not sure I ahev interpreted them correctly.

I basically dread wanting to do something good (working for a few hours per week) that results in something bad happening (getting into trouble or having to move to UC).

I THINK that if I managed to earn enough and over 16 hours per week then I would get some WTC. That's great in principle. BUT if my health takes a downtown and I have to stop working, I think I read that my only option then would be a move to UC - I could NOT move from earning enough for WTC to apply and then move back down to Child Tax Credits only. Hence losing hundreds per month compared to now when I don't work at all. Can anyone confirm? If so then there is no motivation at all to work more than 16 hours per week ever, surely?!

Updated for chemo/SG, see above.

As I said I'm not versed in Tax Credits but as far as I know, that's wrong - if you still have a dependent child and a low income you should still be able to claim CTC.  The main reason people choose to claim UC if they no longer qualify for WTC is to get more (or any, if they don't have children or earn too much for CTC) financial support.

EDIT: though in reality if you can't reapply for ESA - i.e. if your NI record doesn't allow it - then you would have to use your savings to top up your CTC and pension for living expenses, until your savings are low enough that you'd be better off claiming UC.  It definitely seems that staying below the Permitted Work limits is the safest thing to do!

DressingDown

Spoonie_Turtle said:

DressingDown said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is no "triggering a change to UC".  The only way you would 'move to' UC would be if you put in a claim for it yourself, which obviously you're not going to do while you have savings above the threshold.

If you go over the hours or earnings permitted for ESA your claim will end. Whether you can later reclaim ESA if your hours/earnings go back down will depend on whether you earn enough to pay NI contributions (or be credited with NI credits) for long enough after your claim ended.

The only "trigger" for UC would be if you were to put in a claim for UC yourself, which would then automatically end your tax credits.  

You may qualify for WTC as you already have a CTC claim; I don't know the specifics (other posters here do and can help you with that).

Sorry this doesn't directly answer your Qs.  I'll have a look at chemo/Support Group rules unless anyone responds specifically regarding that in the meantime. 

Thanks for this. Yes I'd be really grateful if you could let me know about chemo/support group rules as I am not sure I ahev interpreted them correctly.

I basically dread wanting to do something good (working for a few hours per week) that results in something bad happening (getting into trouble or having to move to UC).

I THINK that if I managed to earn enough and over 16 hours per week then I would get some WTC. That's great in principle. BUT if my health takes a downtown and I have to stop working, I think I read that my only option then would be a move to UC - I could NOT move from earning enough for WTC to apply and then move back down to Child Tax Credits only. Hence losing hundreds per month compared to now when I don't work at all. Can anyone confirm? If so then there is no motivation at all to work more than 16 hours per week ever, surely?!

Updated for chemo/SG, see above.

As I said I'm not versed in Tax Credits but as far as I know, that's wrong - if you still have a dependent child and a low income you should still be able to claim CTC.  The main reason people choose to claim UC if they no longer qualify for WTC is to get more (or any, if they don't have children or earn too much for CTC) financial support.

EDIT: though in reality if you can't reapply for ESA - i.e. if your NI record doesn't allow it - then you would have to use your savings to top up your CTC and pension for living expenses, until your savings are low enough that you'd be better off claiming UC.  It definitely seems that staying below the Permitted Work limits is the safest thing to do!

Thank you for this. 

With regards to the WTC, here is from Entitledto info page about what is a change of circumstance:

IF:
"are on Working Tax Credit and your hours fall below 16" 
YOU SHOULD:
"be asked to claim UC".

So if I am working eg 18 hours pw I will get WTC but not ESA. But then if my health goes wrong, and my hours drop to 2 or 3 - or zero - it looks like I cannot go back to Child Tax Credits and have to claim UC instead. Can anyone confirm or deny my understanding of this? 

(Looking like staying on PW is the safe thing to do, but need to ensure that my question 1 above is answered first - if my claim form said "will never be able to work again" and now I want to do PW, will they launch a review / ask me to be re-assessed? NB. I just got reassessed for PIP and what a nightmare it was; although my award was actually extended I would rather not go thru that again. 

poppy12345

DressingDown said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

DressingDown said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

There is no "triggering a change to UC".  The only way you would 'move to' UC would be if you put in a claim for it yourself, which obviously you're not going to do while you have savings above the threshold.

If you go over the hours or earnings permitted for ESA your claim will end. Whether you can later reclaim ESA if your hours/earnings go back down will depend on whether you earn enough to pay NI contributions (or be credited with NI credits) for long enough after your claim ended.

The only "trigger" for UC would be if you were to put in a claim for UC yourself, which would then automatically end your tax credits.  

You may qualify for WTC as you already have a CTC claim; I don't know the specifics (other posters here do and can help you with that).

Sorry this doesn't directly answer your Qs.  I'll have a look at chemo/Support Group rules unless anyone responds specifically regarding that in the meantime. 

Thanks for this. Yes I'd be really grateful if you could let me know about chemo/support group rules as I am not sure I ahev interpreted them correctly.

I basically dread wanting to do something good (working for a few hours per week) that results in something bad happening (getting into trouble or having to move to UC).

I THINK that if I managed to earn enough and over 16 hours per week then I would get some WTC. That's great in principle. BUT if my health takes a downtown and I have to stop working, I think I read that my only option then would be a move to UC - I could NOT move from earning enough for WTC to apply and then move back down to Child Tax Credits only. Hence losing hundreds per month compared to now when I don't work at all. Can anyone confirm? If so then there is no motivation at all to work more than 16 hours per week ever, surely?!

Updated for chemo/SG, see above.

As I said I'm not versed in Tax Credits but as far as I know, that's wrong - if you still have a dependent child and a low income you should still be able to claim CTC.  The main reason people choose to claim UC if they no longer qualify for WTC is to get more (or any, if they don't have children or earn too much for CTC) financial support.

EDIT: though in reality if you can't reapply for ESA - i.e. if your NI record doesn't allow it - then you would have to use your savings to top up your CTC and pension for living expenses, until your savings are low enough that you'd be better off claiming UC.  It definitely seems that staying below the Permitted Work limits is the safest thing to do!

Thank you for this. 

With regards to the WTC, here is from Entitledto info page about what is a change of circumstance:

IF:
"are on Working Tax Credit and your hours fall below 16" 
YOU SHOULD:
"be asked to claim UC".

So if I am working eg 18 hours pw I will get WTC but not ESA. But then if my health goes wrong, and my hours drop to 2 or 3 - or zero - it looks like I cannot go back to Child Tax Credits and have to claim UC instead. Can anyone confirm or deny my understanding of this? 

(Looking like staying on PW is the safe thing to do, but need to ensure that my question 1 above is answered first - if my claim form said "will never be able to work again" and now I want to do PW, will they launch a review / ask me to be re-assessed? NB. I just got reassessed for PIP and what a nightmare it was; although my award was actually extended I would rather not go thru that again. 

Your understanding is not correct here. As has been advised, you will not automatically have to claim UC if your hours fall below 16. If they do fall below 16 then your WTC will stop but your child tax credits will continue.

As long as your savings remain above £16,000 you will be excluded from claiming UC.

With regards to your Support group award for ESA then yes, if the work you do contradicts the reasons why you're in the Support Group then you could be re-assessed early and the decision could go against you once it's made.

calcotti

Ifyou currently claim Child Tax Credits and then work enough hours to be eligible for WTC the claim becomes a CTC and WTC claim and the calculation revised accordingly. If you are entitled to any payment it will be CTC that is paid. If your hours then drop your claim would revert to CTC only.

However, as you have realised, your ESA will end if you breach the permitted work limits and you will not meet the NI conditions to make a new claim (for new style ESA) If you are trying to reclaim any time this year or next.

calcotti

poppy12345 said: With regards to your Support group award for ESA then yes, if the work you do contradicts the reasons why you're in the Support Group then you could be re-assessed early and the decision could go against you once it's made. 

A cancer patient receiving chemotherapy is entitled to be automatically placed in the Support Group and DWP are satisfied that do have LCWRA.this means that is a presumptive treatment of such claimants as having LCWRA (but not guaranteed).

DressingDown

Thank you for trying to help me on this thread. The only thing my ESA claim form stated (a ESA advisor filled it out with me) was that I had incurable cancer, would be on treatment all my life, had a DS1500 (certificating a terminal illness) and that in the question where it states "When do you anticipate being able to work again?" (paraphrasing) we wrote "I will never be able to work again."  We wrote this because I had just my pension paid out early because the oncologist told me and them that I would never be well enough to work again.

And half the time I'm not. And I wouldn't be able to get a job when I would literally have to take half the year off due to chemo / radiotherapy / scans / blood tests / fear of being infected by others in the office etc.

But I would love to be able to be paid for what I am still good at, which is computer-based, would be entirely flexible around how I was feeling and could be left for a couple of weeks if I was feeling rubbish, and I have friends who would help me with the invoicing and self-assessment etc. Probably an average of 5 hours per week work + 1 hr per week admin. I had a look and it says I would have to prove the work was adapted etc to make it manageable, which it would be.

But, do you think I would be at risk of being re-assessed for ESA entitlement and at risk of being found fit for normal work if I did choose to set up as self-employed to do a few hours of Permitted Work as outlined above? 

Spoonie_Turtle

DressingDown said:

Thank you for trying to help me on this thread. The only thing my ESA claim form stated (a ESA advisor filled it out with me) was that I had incurable cancer, would be on treatment all my life, had a DS1500 (certificating a terminal illness) and that in the question where it states "When do you anticipate being able to work again?" (paraphrasing) we wrote "I will never be able to work again."  We wrote this because I had just my pension paid out early because the oncologist told me and them that I would never be well enough to work again.

And half the time I'm not. And I wouldn't be able to get a job when I would literally have to take half the year off due to chemo / radiotherapy / scans / blood tests / fear of being infected by others in the office etc.

But I would love to be able to be paid for what I am still good at, which is computer-based, would be entirely flexible around how I was feeling and could be left for a couple of weeks if I was feeling rubbish, and I have friends who would help me with the invoicing and self-assessment etc. Probably an average of 5 hours per week work + 1 hr per week admin. I had a look and it says I would have to prove the work was adapted etc to make it manageable, which it would be.

But, do you think I would be at risk of being re-assessed for ESA entitlement and at risk of being found fit for normal work if I did choose to set up as self-employed to do a few hours of Permitted Work as outlined above? 

We don't know the whims of DWP so as to whether they decide to reassess you, nobody knows.  But if they did, you should still meet the criteria for being treated as having LCWRA - i.e. put into the Support Group automatically.  If you click on the link I posted (it's a PDF) and look at the sections 'treated as having LCWRA' and also 'cancer treatment'.  calcotti is correct that it's not guaranteed, but given the effects of your illness and treatment are enough to get you an award of enhanced DL and mobility for PIP, I think the DWP would be hard-pressed to argue that they are not substantial enough to affect your ability to work!

If you are immunocompromised there is also the element of substantial risk; whether if you were found to be fit for work (or work-related activity) it would be a substantial risk to your health.

It's up to you if the possibility of reassessment outweighs the benefits of working, or vice versa.