Degree or No Degree to pursue goals?

mrlegend123

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Unfortunately, the New Right/New Labour way of doing things prevalent since the 1990s has profoundly affected the way most young people view tertiary education.  In the brave new world, it is purely commercial and sold as a means to an end.  Naïve college leavers are told that the way to become anything from a flooring salesman to a restaurant manager is to attend a provincial former poly and complete a decidedly average accredited course in carpet studies or cutlery administration or whatever.  It's a waste of the young person's time and money as, on graduation, they find it doesn't offer automatic entry to a junior management position.  It's unfair and, more to the point, devalues degree education.  There's immense value in 'proper' education; completing a degree for its own sake, in studying a subject for intrinsic value and academic interest rather than in misguided desire to become a financial controller.  Proper education still exists, of course, for the wealthy.  It used to be fairly widely available, but then fewer people went to university.  The bums on seats culture ought to go, but that doesn't help the kids of today.
In short: there's all sorts to be gained by doing a proper degree, but the gains are to the student him or herself.  

that's only if they do a mickey mouse degree having no relevance to the workplace....such as geography or art etc.
My employer doesn't touch managers without relevant degrees and management quals. I have noticed that there is a lot of moaning by the over 50s not getting their intended jobs due to not having their roles backed up by qualifications...... bin for their CVs. 

Manxman_in_exile

mrlegend123 said:

Ditzy_Mitzy said:

Unfortunately, the New Right/New Labour way of doing things prevalent since the 1990s has profoundly affected the way most young people view tertiary education.  In the brave new world, it is purely commercial and sold as a means to an end.  Naïve college leavers are told that the way to become anything from a flooring salesman to a restaurant manager is to attend a provincial former poly and complete a decidedly average accredited course in carpet studies or cutlery administration or whatever.  It's a waste of the young person's time and money as, on graduation, they find it doesn't offer automatic entry to a junior management position.  It's unfair and, more to the point, devalues degree education.  There's immense value in 'proper' education; completing a degree for its own sake, in studying a subject for intrinsic value and academic interest rather than in misguided desire to become a financial controller.  Proper education still exists, of course, for the wealthy.  It used to be fairly widely available, but then fewer people went to university.  The bums on seats culture ought to go, but that doesn't help the kids of today.
In short: there's all sorts to be gained by doing a proper degree, but the gains are to the student him or herself.  

that's only if they do a mickey mouse degree having no relevance to the workplace....such as geography or art etc.
My employer doesn't touch managers without relevant degrees and management quals. I have noticed that there is a lot of moaning by the over 50s not getting their intended jobs due to not having their roles backed up by qualifications...... bin for their CVs. 

You are missing the point that Ditzy_Mitzy is making.

The point is that loads of school leavers over the last 20 - 25 years or so have been persuaded (some might say "conned into") going to university sold on the lie that having a degree  - any degree - would open the doors to the job of their dreams.  This was all predicated on Bliar's barmy fantasy that getting 50% of school leavers to attend university must be a good thing - even if they didn't have the intellectual or academic capability to benefit from attending university.

And on top of that he decided to make them pay for the privilege that many of them probably didn't even want in the first place!  (I'll ignore the question of whether they are really "paying" or whether they have any real debts.  Anything that works on the principle of smoke and mirrors is patently daft.

Unless a student is doing a vocational or "professional" degree (eg medicine, law, engineering etc) where the specialist degree knowledge they pick up is a necessary component of their subsequent job, it really shouldn't matter what discipline a student studies so long as it has academic rigour.  In most non professional and non-vocational degrees, all a degree does should be to act as a sift or a filter for employers to evaluate candidates.  The problem is that when 50% of school leavers go on to study at degree level, having a degree means less and less.

I won't bother to go into Ditzy's point about courses provided by HEIs of questionable quality and courses of even more questionable academic "discipline".  When I think of the number of working class kids who ended up wasting money and three years of their lives studying third rate degrees at third rate HEIs it makes me want to cry.  Their only crime was that they didn't know any better and neither did their parents - but their parents had been sold the lie too.  

mrlegend123

I agree on that point but professional jobs require degrees and registrations with a professional body. You need a professional degree and registrations to suceed in employment resulting in higher earnings. 

route101

I done a vocational degree, not right after school but ten years later. You are useless without experience. I find there is a bit of a stigma around being a 'Graduate'.

Better to do a degree apprenticeship. The university were thinking of stopping the full time construction courses and going part time, as the industry wasn't happy with full time graduates with little experience.

Manxman_in_exile

mrlegend123 said:

I agree on that point but professional jobs require degrees and registrations with a professional body. You need a professional degree and registrations to suceed in employment resulting in higher earnings. 

Well obviously!  That much is self-evident.  (Although I would take issue with your further assertion that you "need" a professional degree and registration to succeed in employment and earn more money - you don't need either - unless it's a job requirement in your chosen career).

But the whole point of this thread is asking the question whether doing a degree makes you more employable or "promotable" in a job or career that does not require a degree or professional registration.

And the answer is: "Not necessarily - it might be a complete waste of time and effort".

But that is not to say that doing a degree is a bad thing.  Doing a degree is generally a good and improving thing to do, but unless a degree is a job requirement, don't expect having one to mean automatically that you will get a good job or earn more money - or get promoted

Mickey666

YorkshirePud_TW said:

I have an empowering CV and cover letter that really does showcase my skills and career highlights to the point recruiter's put me forward to very senior/executive vacancies but I'm not getting the interviews I need - Nor the feedback on why either

I'm putting it down to not having a Bachelor's Degree or MBA, I've searched high and low to the point I feel this is litreally the only step I can take to improve career plan goals - has anyone had the same problems and this is a possible route cause?

One way to test this theory would be to simply add a relevant degree and university to your CV and see if the number of interview offers increases significantly.

I'm not suggesting you actually take up any such interview offers, but just doing it as a way to test whether having a relevant degree really would increase your interview chances.  Might be an interesting exercise.

MovingForwards

I don't have a degree, it didn't stop me having a professional career and being accountable to my regulatory body, nor did it stop me working up the ladder.
The ones I recruited straight out of university needed a lot of training to get them up to standard as they only knew theory.  The ones who took the vocational route had hands on experience of learning theory and practice just from the course without any actual work experience behind it.

Oddly enough, I'm currently employed in a role where a degree was a requirement for meeting application criteria, I got the role based on transferrable experience.

Mickey666

I do have a degree, though not one remotely related to my career in digital electronic design and it didn't seem to prevent me rising through the career progression and ultimately into Tech Dir and MD roles.  In my day (late 70s/early 80s) a degree had real value because relatively few people had one.

@Manxman_in_exile is dead right about the the effective devaluing of a first degree under Blair's government.  it might have sounded like a good idea but young people today are reaping the unintended consequences.  Firstly, the country could afford to pay for 10% of school leavers to go to uni, so there were no tuition fees and full grants were freely available.  Secondly, by encouraging so many school leavers into university, a first degree was devalued because they became commonplace.  These days, they are akin to A-levels . . . all very nice but everyone has them so they are no longer a differentiator - even if they do cost you £40-50k.   What you need these days is a masters degree to get your CV noticed, which is another £15-20k. 
Ker-ching!

Be careful what you wish for!

Manxman_in_exile

Mickey666 said:

YorkshirePud_TW said:

I have an empowering CV and cover letter that really does showcase my skills and career highlights to the point recruiter's put me forward to very senior/executive vacancies but I'm not getting the interviews I need - Nor the feedback on why either

I'm putting it down to not having a Bachelor's Degree or MBA, I've searched high and low to the point I feel this is litreally the only step I can take to improve career plan goals - has anyone had the same problems and this is a possible route cause?

...

I'm not suggesting you actually take up any such interview offers, but just doing it as a way to test whether having a relevant degree really would increase your interview chances.  Might be an interesting exercise.

A very interesting exercise...   

MovingForwards said:

I don't have a degree, it didn't stop me having a professional career and being accountable to my regulatory body, nor did it stop me working up the ladder.
...

I know many very successful professional people (mostly - but not exclusively - chartered accountants in private practice) who did exactly that.  Many of my school contemporaries from the Isle of Man went straight into jobs with accountancy firms and did some kind of block release professional courses in Liverpool.  So they were learning in a classroom and "on the job" at the same time.  This was in the late 70s and early 80s so it was still possible to have professional career without a degree.  Indeed, my contemporaries couldn't see the point of wasting three years at a university as it only delayed the opportunity to earn big money.

And throughout my career I've met many people of all ages who have succeeded in some of the most  demanding professions without having a degree.

Mickey666 said:

I do have a degree, though not one remotely related to my career in digital electronic design and it didn't seem to prevent me rising through the career progression and ultimately into Tech Dir and MD roles.  In my day (late 70s/early 80s) a degree had real value because relatively few people had one.
...

I'm of the same vintage as you.  I have two degrees (one a master's) in a subject which happens to be one of the most professional and vocational - but academic as well - that you can study, but it was completely unrelated to what I ended up working as for 25 years.  Perhaps what many people did, or were still able to do, 40 or so years ago simply couldn't happen now.

Mickey666 said:

...
@Manxman_in_exile is dead right about the the effective devaluing of a first degree under Blair's government.  .... What you need these days is a masters degree to get your CV noticed, which is another £15-20k. 

Ker-ching!

Be careful what you wish for!

As I posted earlier, I find that part of university "education" just too depressing to even think about.

What's ironic is that 30 years ago (before Bliar's expansion of university attendance) I was involved in managing the training of non-medical NHS staff.  A popular - but rather nasty - joke at the time was:  "What are you most likely to hear a sociology graduate say?  Do you want fries with that?".

It was staring people in the face at the time, but Bliar didn't relaise...