Weeks since disciplinary hearing

Jordan90

I'm currently suspended from my workplace. How long should it take to hear back from my employer with an outcome to the disciplinary hearing?
The disciplinary hearing was held in mid-March, the chair of the hearing said he'd be in contact within 48 hours of the hearing ending, but that was 4 weeks ago. I tried contacting him a few days ago, and he's seemingly ignored my texts. Is there a reasonable amount of time you should hear back from them?

I'm also unsure on the proper procedure when it comes to disciplinaries, my Q&A at the beginning of the investigation was conducted while I was still expected to perform my normal work duties. It was never offered for someone to cover my work duties so we could conduct the Q&A in private. There was also no note taker at the Q&A, the manager asking the questions wrote the notes. My job role is secretarial, while the manager was conducting the Q&A, we were interrupted at least 3 times with requests/tasks I needed to do.

Any information or help would be appreciated. Thanks.

MalMonroe

If I were you I'd contact Acas about this - https://www.acas.org.uk/contact

According to information about disciplinary hearings on the acas website (per link above), your hearing wasn't carried out correctly. Especially as you were expected to carry on your normal duties at the beginning! That's outrageous.(Also, if you had been suspended, why were you working?)

The manager should have produced a report of the hearing and let you have a copy.

Acas can advise you what to do, they helped me when I needed advice and my position was also secretarial. 

I hope you've been paid while you have been suspended, as the delay in getting any information back to you is extremely unreasonable. 

Please contact Acas, they can point you in the right direction.

Jordan90

MalMonroe said:

If I were you I'd contact Acas about this - https://www.acas.org.uk/contact

According to information about disciplinary hearings on the acas website (per link above), your hearing wasn't carried out correctly. Especially as you were expected to carry on your normal duties at the beginning! That's outrageous.(Also, if you had been suspended, why were you working?)

The manager should have produced a report of the hearing and let you have a copy.

Acas can advise you what to do, they helped me when I needed advice and my position was also secretarial. 

I hope you've been paid while you have been suspended, as the delay in getting any information back to you is extremely unreasonable. 

Please contact Acas, they can point you in the right direction.

I have been being paid. The decision to suspend me was made in early February, after the Q&A took place. I stupidly didn't take the Q&A that seriously, because it seemed ridiculous to suspend me over what they have, I'd go into more detail but it'd potentially give me away to my employer should they see this, I doubt anyone's been suspended for this before, it's very minor. After the Q&A, the manager came back a couple of hours later, suspended me and walked me off the premises.
I don't have too many problems regarding the disciplinary hearing, that took place in mid-March over telephone, other than I've not received a copy of the notes that were taken during the hearing. I was told they'd send them to me to confirm what was written, but never did.
It's more the initial Q&A that took place in early Feb. Although in my disciplinary pack I received in early March, they didn't include a statement from my line manager, the person who decided my behaviour warranted an investigation, or any documents detailing an investigation into the concerns I raised during the Q&A.
I should be looking at no action/first written warning, possibly a final written warning at the very most, but not dismissal. I just don't understand why I've not heard the outcome of the disciplinary hearing for 4 weeks.

I will contact ACAS though, thanks.

Undervalued

Jordan90 said:

I'm currently suspended from my workplace. How long should it take to hear back from my employer with an outcome to the disciplinary hearing?
The disciplinary hearing was held in mid-March, the chair of the hearing said he'd be in contact within 48 hours of the hearing ending, but that was 4 weeks ago. I tried contacting him a few days ago, and he's seemingly ignored my texts. Is there a reasonable amount of time you should hear back from them?

I'm also unsure on the proper procedure when it comes to disciplinaries, my Q&A at the beginning of the investigation was conducted while I was still expected to perform my normal work duties. It was never offered for someone to cover my work duties so we could conduct the Q&A in private. There was also no note taker at the Q&A, the manager asking the questions wrote the notes. My job role is secretarial, while the manager was conducting the Q&A, we were interrupted at least 3 times with requests/tasks I needed to do.

Any information or help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Statutory procedures which had to be followed to the letter were abolished some years ago and replaced with guidelines.

An employer is still expected to make a reasonable attempt to conduct a fair process and generally the easiest / safest way of doing so is to largely follow the guidelines. However it is not the only way and an alternative process may still be fair.

Ultimately, unless the disciplinary results in your dismissal (which seems unlikely given the time frame), there is nothing you can do about it. You cannot take any lesser sanction to an employment tribunal even if the process was "unfair".

Assuming you are still being paid (?) then the delay is costing the firm money, not you, so it is arguably more in their interest to progress this than it is yours.

74jax

Jordan90 said:

I'm currently suspended from my workplace. How long should it take to hear back from my employer with an outcome to the disciplinary hearing?
The disciplinary hearing was held in mid-March, the chair of the hearing said he'd be in contact within 48 hours of the hearing ending, but that was 4 weeks ago. I tried contacting him a few days ago, and he's seemingly ignored my texts. Is there a reasonable amount of time you should hear back from them?

I'm also unsure on the proper procedure when it comes to disciplinaries, my Q&A at the beginning of the investigation was conducted while I was still expected to perform my normal work duties. It was never offered for someone to cover my work duties so we could conduct the Q&A in private. There was also no note taker at the Q&A, the manager asking the questions wrote the notes. My job role is secretarial, while the manager was conducting the Q&A, we were interrupted at least 3 times with requests/tasks I needed to do.

Any information or help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Is 'him' the chair of the hearing?
Is it a large company? Do you have a HR dept? Who has sent (any) letters in this? 
I'm not sure I would text, I would send an email copied to the HR dept.
In relation to the procedures for disciplinary meetings, could you ask for the company guidelines in your email too, and hopefully these will be emailed to you?

Undervalued

74jax said:

Jordan90 said:

I'm currently suspended from my workplace. How long should it take to hear back from my employer with an outcome to the disciplinary hearing?
The disciplinary hearing was held in mid-March, the chair of the hearing said he'd be in contact within 48 hours of the hearing ending, but that was 4 weeks ago. I tried contacting him a few days ago, and he's seemingly ignored my texts. Is there a reasonable amount of time you should hear back from them?

I'm also unsure on the proper procedure when it comes to disciplinaries, my Q&A at the beginning of the investigation was conducted while I was still expected to perform my normal work duties. It was never offered for someone to cover my work duties so we could conduct the Q&A in private. There was also no note taker at the Q&A, the manager asking the questions wrote the notes. My job role is secretarial, while the manager was conducting the Q&A, we were interrupted at least 3 times with requests/tasks I needed to do.

Any information or help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Is 'him' the chair of the hearing?
Is it a large company? Do you have a HR dept? Who has sent (any) letters in this? 
I'm not sure I would text, I would send an email copied to the HR dept.
In relation to the procedures for disciplinary meetings, could you ask for the company guidelines in your email too, and hopefully these will be emailed to you?

Indeed.

However to add to / clarify my earlier post, whilst most lager companies will have their own procedures / guidelines for disciplinary matters it is normal for it to be made clear that they are not contractual. This is so that any deviation for the "script" does not automatically become a breach of contract and give rise to a potential wrongful (note not unfair) dismissal claim. 

As I said earlier, providing they make a reasonable attempt to conduct a fair process, minor (or even moderate) failures in procedure will not, in itself, make any decision legally unfair.

There have been a few successful cases brought where an employee had been suspended (even on full pay) for an excessive amount of time. Generally however, as it is the employer and not the employee who is losing out financially, there is little that can be done.

Equally, many employees who are "guilt, ban to rights" will string the disciplinary process out as long as possible just to keep being paid. Some would say the police are particularly good at this trick!

juraj.kecso

Hi,

I would certainly consider calling ACAS. 4 weeks to make a decision following a disciplinary hearing is absolutely unreasonable.

Jordan90

To update anyone on this.
The chair ignored another attempt at contact until HR were contacted, the chair then contacted me right away with a somewhat rude text. A few days later, i got the call that the outcome was summary dismissal.

The next day I got through the post the notes that were taken during the disciplinary hearing. The disciplinary hearing took place over the phone due to COVID, and the chair of the hearing stated a number of times that the hand written notes taken by the note taker, would be sent out to me for me to amend any parts I felt were wrong. I never received those notes however, and have only now received them after already being dismissed, 6 weeks after the hearing took place.

There are so many misquotes in the disciplinary hearing, and errors in the disciplinary investigation that I am appauled it's taken over 6 weeks for the result to be this. I covertly recorded the disciplinary hearing for my own records, so I could use it to take rough notes later of the hearing and cross reference with the notes the note taker had written, but I never received the note taker's notes.

Has anyone, instead of appealing, gone straight to ACAS for early conciliation? or even, straight to an employment tribunal claim?

Diamandis

Would the notes have changed the outcome? What errors were in the investigation? You should appeal through the process your employer provides in the first instance.

Undervalued

Jordan90 said:

To update anyone on this.
The chair ignored another attempt at contact until HR were contacted, the chair then contacted me right away with a somewhat rude text. A few days later, i got the call that the outcome was summary dismissal.

The next day I got through the post the notes that were taken during the disciplinary hearing. The disciplinary hearing took place over the phone due to COVID, and the chair of the hearing stated a number of times that the hand written notes taken by the note taker, would be sent out to me for me to amend any parts I felt were wrong. I never received those notes however, and have only now received them after already being dismissed, 6 weeks after the hearing took place.

There are so many misquotes in the disciplinary hearing, and errors in the disciplinary investigation that I am appauled it's taken over 6 weeks for the result to be this. I covertly recorded the disciplinary hearing for my own records, so I could use it to take rough notes later of the hearing and cross reference with the notes the note taker had written, but I never received the note taker's notes.

Has anyone, instead of appealing, gone straight to ACAS for early conciliation? or even, straight to an employment tribunal claim?

You are focusing far too much on procedure rather than the rights and wrongs of the case itself.

The only two things that really matter are.....

Does the employer have a reasonable belief that you are guilty of misconduct? 

and if so

Would dismissal be within the range of sanctions a reasonable employer would choose?

Note: It is not a court of law, they do no need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact the dismissal would be fair in law even if their reasonable belief is latter proved to be wrong. All that matter is that it was reasonable for them to have that belief at the time.

Now, if the notes from the hearing would help you to show that they could not have formed a reasonable belief then they would be useful. Otherwise they are next to irrelevant and the very best you are likely to get is a technical win and little or no compensation.

The days of minor errors of procedure leading to automatic awards of compensation at an employment tribunal are long gone.

As Diamandis says, under virtually all circumstances you should follow your employer's appeal process before filing any claim. Note that you have 3 months, less one day, from the date of dismissal so don't let them run the clock down.

Jordan90

Undervalued said:

Jordan90 said:

To update anyone on this.
The chair ignored another attempt at contact until HR were contacted, the chair then contacted me right away with a somewhat rude text. A few days later, i got the call that the outcome was summary dismissal.

The next day I got through the post the notes that were taken during the disciplinary hearing. The disciplinary hearing took place over the phone due to COVID, and the chair of the hearing stated a number of times that the hand written notes taken by the note taker, would be sent out to me for me to amend any parts I felt were wrong. I never received those notes however, and have only now received them after already being dismissed, 6 weeks after the hearing took place.

There are so many misquotes in the disciplinary hearing, and errors in the disciplinary investigation that I am appauled it's taken over 6 weeks for the result to be this. I covertly recorded the disciplinary hearing for my own records, so I could use it to take rough notes later of the hearing and cross reference with the notes the note taker had written, but I never received the note taker's notes.

Has anyone, instead of appealing, gone straight to ACAS for early conciliation? or even, straight to an employment tribunal claim?

You are focusing far too much on procedure rather than the rights and wrongs of the case itself.

The only two things that really matter are.....

Does the employer have a reasonable belief that you are guilty of misconduct? 

and if so

Would dismissal be within the range of sanctions a reasonable employer would choose?

Note: It is not a court of law, they do no need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact the dismissal would be fair in law even if their reasonable belief is latter proved to be wrong. All that matter is that it was reasonable for them to have that belief at the time.

Now, if the notes from the hearing would help you to show that they could not have formed a reasonable belief then they would be useful. Otherwise they are next to irrelevant and the very best you are likely to get is a technical win and little or no compensation.

The days of minor errors of procedure leading to automatic awards of compensation at an employment tribunal are long gone.

As Diamandis says, under virtually all circumstances you should follow your employer's appeal process before filing any claim. Note that you have 3 months, less one day, from the date of dismissal so don't let them run the clock down.

I don't know. I'll describe my case more to give you a better picture of what my disciplinary was about.
I received summary dismissal for refusing a phonecall with my manager because I was busy, and asked for an email instead so I could deal with the request at a later time. My job role is secretarial / clerical, I'm always busy. My manager contacted me through an IM service, didn't explain to me why he desperately needed to talk to me at that specific time, only mentioning that he needed to talk to me, when I asked for an email he immediately escalated the situation straight to disciplinary action, despite allowing a colleague of mine to get away with refusing tasks (gross misconduct - refusal of a reasonable management request) for nearly a year. An 'investigation' was conducted where another manager came to me while I was working shortly after this conversation through IM with my manager took place, and conducted a Q&A with me. After the Q&A, I was suspended for refusing a reasonable management request.
Before the disciplinary hearing took place, I wasn't told and didn't receive a copy of the Q&A that was conducted with my manager, wherein my manager lies about my colleague refusing a reasonable management request for nearly a year. I have evidence to show my manager was ignoring my colleague not completing this work, and instead allowed my colleague to let this work pile up until I stepped in to complete it for the better of the company. My manager acknowledged that the workload for my department was disproportinate during the Q&A, this can be seen as a form of bullying according to ACAS, which I do believe my manager was targeting me.
I've essentially been setup, and pushed out by my manager. Another manager at my old company found it worthy of summary dismissal, and ignored that my manager had lied during his Q&A. The 'investigation' he conducted was a joke, and didn't look into anything I had said.

I will admit, I have been focused too much on the procedure aspect of the case, but feel I've received such harsh treatment, especially after my colleague has been allowed to get away with much worse for nearly a year, I am so !!!!!! off about this treatment, and my employer going back on their word at every opportunity. I've worked for this company for 10+ years, received no other form of disciplinary action against me, and been dismissed for asking for an email to deal with a request at a later time because I was busy. I also have a noticeable disability, and feel I have been discriminated against.

I'm going through the appeal process, but again, it's taken my employer weeks before sorting out any kind of hearing, thankfully the manager chosen to chair the appeal is from another area in the UK, but I have no idea what's going to happen.