Qs on LPE1 (and ID1) forms - one signature to transfer share of freehold when 2 people own property

eskimalita7

Hi
I may have made some errors when I refer to title etc. I am not legally trained so please correct me if I have used the wrong terminology. I am also going to check this with my conveyancer but I find you guys so helpful.

We are 4 properties each with an equal share of freehold. This time last year the names on deeds were as follows:
P1: Mr&Mrs B
P2: Ms F
P3: Mrs G (me)
P4 Mr&Mrs T
We do not have a single leaseholder or management company. On an LPE1, each property needs to sign.

In summer 2020, P1 was being sold. To transfer the share of freehold to the new owner of P1 (Ms C) one LPE1 was needed where we squeezed 4 signatures into the little box (plus witnessed ID1s for each person).
Only Mr B from P1 signed the LPE1 and produced a ID1.
For P2 and P3 it was simple: only one name on the deeds and current freehold title so Ms F and Mrs G signed and produced ID1s.
For P4 only Mr T signed the LPE1 and produced an ID1.

First question: was this correct? Can Mr B and Mr T sign to agree to the new transfer of freehold even thought there are two names are on the deeds pf their property (their wives)? 

I am not aware that the properties were sent any copies of the new title showing share of freehold with Ms C as the new owner of P1. I don't think this is required.

Fast forward to now, and I am selling (P3: Mrs G). The situation is now:
P1: Ms C
P2: Ms F
P3: Mrs G (me)
P4 Mr&Mrs T

In P4, Mr&Mrs T have separated and Mr T is living elsewhere. It is a recent separation and I have no idea how permanent - they are a yo-yo couple who always do this. Mr T is happy to sign LPE1 and ID1. However, Mrs T is an attention seeker and causing a fuss.

My solicitor says that only Mr T needs to sign as only he signed in summer 2020 when P2 sold to Ms C. I will be double checking this with my solicitor on Monday.

I have checked copies of TR1s that I have on record from previous sales. TR1s are now not used and I presume the TPE1 superseded them.

Second question: Is it possible that at some point, the share of freehold document which used to name both names (when 2 people jointly owned the property), has incorrectly only noted one name? Am I worrying over nothing? Should I just ignore Mrs T or does she have some right to object?

Tiglet2

This is quite difficult to read and understand.  Are you selling both the Leasehold and Freehold Title?  If so, there are two transactions.  

You are selling the Leasehold Title of P3, so the TR1 would be signed by the registered proprietors named on the leasehold title, i.e. you and any other owner of your own property (e.g.  P3 ABC House)

You are also selling a one quarter share of the Freehold Title, so an additional TR1 is to be signed by all those named on the Freehold Title.  Land Registry will only list up to four people on a title, so the people who should sign are those named as registered proprietors for the Freehold Title of ABC House.

Your questions:

First question: was this correct? Can Mr B and Mr T sign to agree to the new transfer of freehold even thought there are two names are on the deeds pf their property (their wives)? 

Presumably you are confusing the two names on the Leasehold Title (Mr B and Mrs B, Mr T and Mrs T), but only one from each property named on the Freehold Title?


Second question: Is it possible that at some point, the share of freehold document which used to name both names (when 2 people jointly owned the property), has incorrectly only noted one name? Am I worrying over nothing? Should I just ignore Mrs T or does she have some right to object?

Again, I assume you might be confusing the Leasehold and Freehold Titles.  Who is named on the Freehold Title?  Named people need to sign the freehold transfer.

If you do not have a managing agent, then the LPE1 would be signed by the four freeholders named on the freehold title.

SDLT_Geek

eskimalita7 said:

Hi
I may have made some errors when I refer to title etc. I am not legally trained so please correct me if I have used the wrong terminology. I am also going to check this with my conveyancer but I find you guys so helpful.

We are 4 properties each with an equal share of freehold. This time last year the names on deeds

SDLT Geek: From what follows I assume that when you say "deeds" you are referring to each of the four leasehold titles to the flats.  The value will presumably sit with the long leases, not with the freehold.

 were as follows:
P1: Mr&Mrs B
P2: Ms F
P3: Mrs G (me)
P4 Mr&Mrs T
We do not have a single leaseholder or management company. On an LPE1, each property needs to sign.

SDLT Geek: An LPE1 form is an enquiry form.  For example, when the leasehold of flat P1 was being sold, Mr and Mrs B would have asked the joint freeholders to complete a form LPE1 as part of the information gathering process.

In summer 2020, P1 was being sold. To transfer the share of freehold to the new owner of P1 (Ms C) one LPE1 was needed where we squeezed 4 signatures into the little box (plus witnessed ID1s for each person).

SDLT Geek: LPE1 does not transfer the freehold.

Only Mr B from P1 signed the LPE1 and produced a ID1.
For P2 and P3 it was simple: only one name on the deeds and current freehold title so Ms F and Mrs G signed and produced ID1s.
For P4 only Mr T signed the LPE1 and produced an ID1.

First question: was this correct? Can Mr B and Mr T sign to agree to the new transfer of freehold even thought there are two names are on the deeds pf their property (their wives)? 

SDLT Geek: LPE1 is only about providing information, not transferring the freehold.

I am not aware that the properties were sent any copies of the new title showing share of freehold with Ms C as the new owner of P1. I don't think this is required.

SDLT Geek: It would have been helpful, had the freehold been transferred.  But it sounds as if it was not transferred.

Fast forward to now, and I am selling (P3: Mrs G). The situation is now:

SDLT Geek: I think you are saying who are the registered proprietors of the long leases of the flats?

P1: Ms C
P2: Ms F
P3: Mrs G (me)
P4 Mr&Mrs T

In P4, Mr&Mrs T have separated and Mr T is living elsewhere. It is a recent separation and I have no idea how permanent - they are a yo-yo couple who always do this. Mr T is happy to sign LPE1 and ID1. However, Mrs T is an attention seeker and causing a fuss.

My solicitor says that only Mr T needs to sign as only he signed in summer 2020 when P2 sold to Ms C. I will be double checking this with my solicitor on Monday.

I have checked copies of TR1s that I have on record from previous sales. TR1s are now not used and I presume the TPE1 superseded them.

SDLT Geek: If no TR1s have been signed for the freehold, then the freehold has not been transferred.  LPE1 is just an "enquiry" form.

Second question: Is it possible that at some point, the share of freehold document which used to name both names (when 2 people jointly owned the property), has incorrectly only noted one name? Am I worrying over nothing? Should I just ignore Mrs T or does she have some right to object?

What a lot of confusion in one post!  I have put some annotations in italics which might help.

The key point is that form LPE1 is an "enquiry" form, used to provide information to help a conveyancing transaction.  It is not the same as a TR1 which transfers ownership.

So the freehold might remain in some "out of date" names.  There is a maximum of four names can go on the register of a title.

Land_Registry

As others have posted it’s a hard read and ultimately confusing. As also posted the LPE1 is a conveyancing form so unsure as to its importance. 

What tends to be the issue where you have 1 freehold owned by the 4 leaseholders is that you have to transfer the freehold each time one of the leaseholds is sold. So you need a TR1 executed by all named freeholders transferring it to remaining ones plus a new one. 

The freehold can get overlooked and you end up with just the leasehold being transferred and that can mean a mismatch re legal ownerships which if allowed to run can then be difficult so resolve if the seller moves away and out of reach
Key re the freehold title and then ID1s needed is to check and confirm how the freehold is registered and in which names 
In such cases it’s worth considering putting the freehold into a company ownership where each leaseholder has a share and Directors are created. Much easier to deal with as incoming leaseholders get a share certificate and outgoing have theirs cancelled. It’s not a must have as many don’t but sometimes worth considering especially if leaseholds are being sold regularly 

eskimalita7

Hi everyone, you superstars!
You are all totally right that I have made a right meal of the explanation. I apologise. I'm one of those people who either explains something really well or gives far too much detail. When I am confident its an area where I hold knowledge, I am very good at being succinct. When I am unsure, I get lost in the detail... as you can see above.
All three of you have managed to decipher the issue and all three of you have been very helpful if your replies. I am very grateful for your patience! I have been worrying about this and so tonight won't be a sleepless night like last night.
I have the info I need: the LPE1 is an enquiry form. I was confusing this with a TR1. The land registry can only list 4 names so that explains why, when couples have owned one of the properties in the past, just the first named person has signed. Thank you.

eskimalita7

"in your replies", not "if your replies" 
The recommendation to put the freehold into company ownership is a very good one. I approached the neighbours about this a good few years ago. It was considered a good idea for each flat to contribute a set amount each month, say £20. 2 flats agreed (and could see the benefit of building up a fund) but only on the condition that they didn't have to do any of the work setting up or managing the company. The "difficult" couple didn't agree because they didn't want to contribute to a regular "pot" for maintenance. I realised everything would be left to me and didn't push it any further (and, my god, after my post above.... imagine how unclear and waffley my emails as head of the management company would have been    )

Land_Registry

Putting the freehold into a company name is an option but one to consider carefully. It matters very little from a registration perspective as you still have to transfer the legal ownership. But it may make a beneficial difference re the matters you mention - the maintenance pot is a good one too but as you appreciate getting everyone to agree is not a given. 

jonnnyash

If anyone needs a solicitor to complete an ID1 Form (or ID2 Form) then it's worth checking on https://land-reg-id.co.uk/

They also list solicitors offering to do it on a video call meeting using the ID5 Form.

Hope it can help.

eddddy

jonnnyash said:

If anyone needs a solicitor to complete an ID1 Form (or ID2 Form) then it's worth checking on https://land-reg-id.co.uk/

They also list solicitors offering to do it on a video call meeting using the ID5 Form.

Hope it can help.

That is such a strange website. It looks so amateurish, it feels like a scam.

And the company behind it seems to have been formed by a firm called 99p Company Formations. (meaning they probably paid 99p to form their ltd company)

Have legitimate solicitors really signed up to list their details on such an amateurish website?


I guess I might use the website to search for a solicitor, and then contact them by email - and not using the website's messaging feature. (As I wouldn't want the website operators to capture my email address and the questions I'm asking the solicitor.)



And with website graphics like this, it's hard to tell if they're trying to mislead people into thinking that they are associated with Land Registry....

canaldumidi

jonnnyash said:

If anyone needs a solicitor to complete an ID1 Form (or ID2 Form) then it's worth checking on https://land-reg-id.co.uk/

They also list solicitors offering to do it on a video call meeting using the ID5 Form.

Hope it can help.

I too advise ignoring this company. Indeed, if the poster is connected to it, then promoting the company is against forum rules.

The Land Registry has in any case eased ID check requirements due to the pandemic.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/temporary-changes-to-hm-land-registrys-evidence-of-identity-requirements-pg67a

user1977

eddddy said:

jonnnyash said:

If anyone needs a solicitor to complete an ID1 Form (or ID2 Form) then it's worth checking on https://land-reg-id.co.uk/

They also list solicitors offering to do it on a video call meeting using the ID5 Form.

Hope it can help.

That is such a strange website. It looks so amateurish, it feels like a scam.

Also being suggested by a poster who appears to have spent the day post-building in order to be entitled to post a link...