Diesel Emissions Scandal - Can We All Now Claim?

AdrianC

alanfp said:

Desperately trying to drag this back on topic!!!

Sunday Times says that VW HAVE paid out compensation
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/vw-suffers-hit-ongoing-dieselgate-scandal/

In the US, yes.

Where VW were found to have definitely cheated in the tests. Very different tests, with far stricter limits.

The old NEDC driving cycle that pre-2018 cars had their economy certified to was very, very straightforward. It would have been illegal for them to quote any figures other than arrived at through this cycle.

Does your driving conform to this? No? Then you will get a different result.

Modelman_2

With regards to the UK are these claims even going to stand if the US were basing the claims on tighter figures?
Also are they now claiming that all manufactures were guilty of manipulating to figures rather than just the named few?

seinajoki

Possibly for another thread, but since this diesel emissions thing started I have wondered why the Government have not persued the companies involved for the difference in road tax that the car owners should have paid, against what was paid, had the correct emissions been declared. Or am i missing the point here ?

AdrianC

seinajoki said:

Possibly for another thread, but since this diesel emissions thing started I have wondered why the Government have not persued the companies involved for the difference in road tax that the car owners should have paid, against what was paid, had the correct emissions been declared. Or am i missing the point here ?

Yes.

VED for 2001-2017 vehicles was based on CO2.

The US "cheating" was around NOx.

The European "cheating" is around devices (detected in some manufacturers software, not all) that were not explicitly allowed - but not explicitly banned. The tests have not been redone to come up with new official CO2 figures, not least because there are no brand-new examples of the older vehicles available for testing.

selondonman

AdrianC said:

Modelman_2 said:

Is it too good to be true

Yes.

and some manufacturers have already paid out millions, or even billions, in compensation.

While this isn't an outright lie, it is certainly very misleading.

The original "dieselgate" started because VW were found to have cheated in US emissions testing. VW and Mercedes were the only companies even attempting to sell diesels in the US, because US emissions limits did not account for fuel type, so the limits were FAR stricter than the European ones. Compensation was paid to the US authorities, and VW voluntarily offered US drivers a compensation payment plus a fix or to buy the car back.

The "cheat devices" behind the European claims were not explicitly barred in the European testing, but have since been declared unlawful in a series of court cases.
No court in Europe has awarded customers anything against the manufacturers yet.

What are your actual losses?

When did you buy the cars, relative to the original "dieselgate" allegations becoming public in autumn 2015?

Right now, this is nothing more than a bunch of speculative ambulance chasers, and you have the potential to be liable for a substantial swathe of legal fees if you sign up.

the losses are the lack of residual value and the ulez in london  and extra parking charges

there are significant extra losses for owners of diesel cars in the UK 

selondonman

why is anyone defending car manufacturers for clearly cheating on the emissions. 

diesle cars were effectively forced upon UK due to pressure from EU via German car manufacturers who tooled up to produce cars for the big miles driven in france and germany. Try buying a petrol estate in the UK pre diesel gate  .. very few available. The scientists as always answer to their paymasters and were informed to make diesel the preferred cars .. just now like they are paid to make diesel the enemy as car companies can force people to replace good cars with new electric ones 
of course sadiq kkan wnt say anything against German car manufacturers and instead just tax Londoners because he needed European votes to get re elected 

AdrianC

selondonman said:

why is anyone defending car manufacturers for clearly cheating on the emissions.

They aren't.

diesle cars were effectively forced upon UK due to pressure from EU via German car manufacturers who tooled up to produce cars for the big miles driven in france and germany.

Simply not reality.

Try buying a petrol estate in the UK pre diesel gate  .. very few available.

Supply and demand.

The scientists as always answer to their paymasters and were informed to make diesel the preferred cars

Simply not reality.

Diesels emit far less CO2 than petrols.
Diesels use far less fuel than petrols.
That simple.

VED changes encouraged those CO2 savings - and they worked. The official CO2 figures for ALL cars on UK roads fell rapidly.
In 2001, the first year of CO2 taxing, the average car emitted nearly 180g/km.
By 2017, the last year of CO2 taxing for new cars, it had fallen to 140g/km. For new cars, it was 120g.

And that despite cars getting bigger and heavier as more impact resistance and safety kit was designed in.

just now like they are paid to make diesel the enemy as car companies can force people to replace good cars with new electric ones&

Diesels emit far MORE CO2 and use far MORE fuel than EVs.

of course sadiq kkan wnt say anything against German car manufacturers and instead just tax Londoners because he needed European votes to get re elected

Wow, where to start on unpacking that?

Well, apart from anything else, the Mayor of London gets voted for by registered voters resident in... London. Nowhere else. So these "European votes" must come from Londoners.

But, of course, we then come back to the real reason for the emission "cheating". Oxides of Nitrogen, NOx.

NOx emissions from diesels rose as particulate emissions fell, due to changes in the way the fuel combusted. Those changes came in as emissions tightened - basically, the same hydrocarbons are going in and combusting with the same oxygen. If some of the combustion byproducts cease to be formed, others HAVE to be instead. Basic chemistry.

It became rapidly apparent that NOx was becoming a VERY big localised air problem in urban environments with lots of traffic. In the UK that means... London. It had got to the point that taken as an average across the city, London was repeatedly breaching the legal cumulative NOx levels for the year during January. Look at a NOx map of London, and it's a map of the major roads.

The only proven emissions cheating so far was by VW in the US, and centred around NOx emissions, not CO2. Unlike UNECE regs, the US did not differentiate between petrol and diesel for NOx emissions. VW were about the only company even trying to sell diesels in the US. US CO2 emissions were FAR higher than Europe, as a direct result.

All these ambulance-chasing band-wagon jumping claims are nothing whatsoever to do with the US rulings against VW, and are purely speculative against companies that weren't even in the US market at all - PSA, for instance, haven't sold a new car in the US since the 1980s.

JenB79

selondonman said:

of course sadiq kkan wnt say anything against German car manufacturers and instead just tax Londoners because he needed European votes to get re elected 

Really? 🤣 🤣 🤣

Grumpy_chap

selondonman said:

AdrianC said:

Modelman_2 said:

Is it too good to be true

Yes.

and some manufacturers have already paid out millions, or even billions, in compensation.

While this isn't an outright lie, it is certainly very misleading.

The original "dieselgate" started because VW were found to have cheated in US emissions testing. VW and Mercedes were the only companies even attempting to sell diesels in the US, because US emissions limits did not account for fuel type, so the limits were FAR stricter than the European ones. Compensation was paid to the US authorities, and VW voluntarily offered US drivers a compensation payment plus a fix or to buy the car back.

The "cheat devices" behind the European claims were not explicitly barred in the European testing, but have since been declared unlawful in a series of court cases.
No court in Europe has awarded customers anything against the manufacturers yet.

What are your actual losses?

When did you buy the cars, relative to the original "dieselgate" allegations becoming public in autumn 2015?

Right now, this is nothing more than a bunch of speculative ambulance chasers, and you have the potential to be liable for a substantial swathe of legal fees if you sign up.

the losses are the lack of residual value and the ulez in london  and extra parking charges

there are significant extra losses for owners of diesel cars in the UK 

I am struggling to follow your logic about losses incurred by owners of diesel cars in the UK.

In particular, if the manufacturer had a "cheat device" resulting in lower official CO2 than would otherwise be the case, the owner of the vehicle could only stand to gain through avoiding ULEZ and CO2-based parking charges.

I can't think of any case where UK charges are linked to NOx, which is the big issue the "cheat devices" worked to avoid in USA.

AdrianC

Grumpy_chap said:

I can't think of any case where UK charges are linked to NOx, which is the big issue the "cheat devices" worked to avoid in USA.

There aren't any.

There's no suggestion any of these vehicles failed to meet UNECE NOx caps applicable at the time. The US requirement was FAR lower.