Gate across private driveway in cul de sac

8username8

Here is an update.

From title plan:

And relevant sections from deeds:

There is no yellow section in the plan.

There seems to be clear differentiation between my part of a drive in blue and the pass-through part of the drive in brown.

Blue section appears to mean that I need to gain permission of local water supplier. I will get in touch with them this week.

8username8

lookstraightahead said:

Why really do you need to put a gate up. Can't you just put a gate round your garden?
Wouldnt it be nicer to just be equal with your neighbours rather than create some hierarchy as to land ownership? 
If I was your neighbour, I wouldn't be your friend, sorry.

@lookstraightahea, I honestly did not want to upset you. 

Redwino222

8username8 said:

Redwino222 said:

I would also check who has a right away over the shared lane.  The developer may also have access - is there possibility of further development past your house?  

No, this development was complete 30 years go. All plots around are sold and houses are built. There is no other access than from thepublic road shown in the plan

Are you sure that Right of access is restricted To the three houses and no one else?

I lived in a similar set up many years ago.  The private lane was owned by the two houses (owning half and and having right of way over the other half, split down the middle).  There were no further plots, but the developer retained a right of way as well, presumable incase he bought more land (would have to be neighbours back gardens).

this would have all been explained to you though when you bought and will be set out in your deeds.

8username8

Mickey666 said:

8username8 said:

theoretica said:

I would suggest talk the the neighbours before doing it.

Putting a gate across - with no lock - can be allowable for a pedestrian right of way, so possibly for a vehicle one too.  But how annoyed would you be if neighbours did that too?

That's definitely a part of the plan. I will consult with the neighbors. But I don't want to approach them before I figured out the legal side of things. What if neighbors say its OK but it later turns out to be not legal. Say neighbor who said OK moves out and the new one moves in and takes me to court...

So neighbours will be consulted but phase 1 is to understand if what I am planning is actually possible.

But it would never come to that would it?  You seem like a sensible and responsible person doing their homework before erecting a gate, so I'm guessing you'll not end up doing anything wrong.  But even if you mistakenly erected a gate and someone could prove it was somehow illegal, I'm sure you'd simply remove the gate well before any formal legal proceedings.  No one in their right mind instigates court action out of the blue - it's an action of last resort.  

I'm sure it would never come to it. And you are right that if this would become a cause of a major conflict I would rather take the gate down than go to court over it with my neighbor.

8username8

JJR45 said:

Mickey666 said:

I can see no sensible reason for neighbours 1&2 having any right of way over the section of driveway on the OP's plot.

Maintenance, I presume they are jointly responsible for the road. (Hardly fair house 1 would have full liability for the road in front of their house when 2 others have access)
Access to utilities, drainage etc.
Turning round.
Also it is easier to write in than create a separate agreement for each. 1 clause for 3 contracts is far easier, all granted access to the same road.

As far as I know I am indeed responsible for shared maintenance of the drive in front of Neighbors 1 and 2. I pass through it everyday before getting onto the main road. That is totally fair. I don't think however that they are responsible for mantaining my part of the drive (marked in blue) as they never use it and have no reason to. As I stated in original post, even when doing a 3-point turn on a large car, they don't need to drive as far as the blue plot is...

Section62

8username8 said:

Blue section appears to mean that I need to gain permission of local water supplier. I will get in touch with them this week.

Does it explain what the area shown with a dashed-line border and double-hatching represents?

That, plus the reference to the RWA suggests there might be a water supply pipe or sewer located under that area.  Did anything like that come up in the searches when you purchased?

Also, did you see my comment about needing to look at the planning history?

theoretica

Is any of your land shaded on your neighbours deeds?

8username8

Section62 said:

8username8 said:

Blue section appears to mean that I need to gain permission of local water supplier. I will get in touch with them this week.

Does it explain what the area shown with a dashed-line border and double-hatching represents?

That, plus the reference to the RWA suggests there might be a water supply pipe or sewer located under that area.  Did anything like that come up in the searches when you purchased?

Also, did you see my comment about needing to look at the planning history?

There is indeed a sewage running under all three plots and the manhole is in the blue area. I assume the clause in the deeds is for that purpose. I will be contacting RWA to see what is their stance on the subject. They might say no or might just state that I need to give them access on request. There are other manholes around, a few of them in people's back gardens, so I don't think a gate would make a big difference. But well noted @Section62. I will be checking with RWA

Regarding planning history, can you please explain a bit more what exactly should I look for? I am not familiar with UK processes and documentation. I am now looking through paperwork that came with the house.

princeofpounds

Maintenance obligations - it will be either
a) specified in the deeds as a shared obligation, or
b) you will be in a situation where the owner of each section of land can choose to maintain the road surface or not. But in addition anyone who has a right of way over a section of road surface can also choose to maintain it at their own expense, even if they do not own the land. The right to maintain a right of a way that you have use of is an 'ancillary right' well established in law. 

Of course it would make most sense to just maintain it all co-operatively.

Back to your main topic:

- you still need to check the plans and deeds of the other two houses. This may help resolve the location of the 'joint accessway' in yellow. Your section is probably not joint accessway, as no-one else requires access to it. Your two neighbours' sections may be joint accessway.

Or it could technically be referring to a totally different area, but it probably does relate to the shared portions of the driveway. Or there could be a drafting error and the yellow shading obscured by the brown (sounds silly I know there is a kind of yellow tint and weirder things have happened!)

- you have covenanted not to erect any structure over your section of the driveway without the permission of the water authority. It is highly unlikely that the developer would actually enforce this covenant. The water authority may turn up one day demanding access, but that is also practically unlikely (indeed it wouldn't matter if you had covenanted to the developer or not; they can access your land if they need to) and possibly resolved by just opening the gate, unless they want to access something underneath it.

However, if you do build on the blue area, it could cause problems when selling as you would be selling in breach of a covenant. A buyer may choose to look past that or want indemnity insurance (assuming that you never told the developer or water authority, otherwise indemnity insurance is not possible) but you may be forced to remove it. But there's a chance it wouldn't even be noticed, as solicitors don't do site visits and buyers may not read that carefully.

8username8

theoretica said:

Is any of your land shaded on your neighbours deeds?

In the plan available from HM land registry for my Neighbor's property, there is not much detail. There's only a plot boundary.

Neighbor's deeds however refers to the very same document that I took the diagram with the blue/brown plots from. The doc number is identical so I assume it is a part of his deeds the same way it is part of mine...