Few questions about HMO's

a_fierce_bad_rabbit

General_Grant said:

a_fierce_bad_rabbit said:

I think I can see why, from my info, someone might think it is suspicious. I do understand.
In my own opinion, it is weird, mysterious but probably not criminal, because although the young men have appeared on and off, I don't think anyone is going in there often enough to make me think it is drug related - and who would use a key safe? That would compromise their activities surely? Perhaps the person who was in there at night was one of them dossing over for some reason.

None of the guys are contractors and all seem curiously alike but not connected.
One of them appeared at the front looking in at the window last week, spoke on his phone for a while then a car full of other guys picked him up and drove off.
They are all well presented (clean, decent clothes,, etc), don't look troubled or poor. All are thin, smoke like troopers and around the same age range.
This just reminds me of the guys who used to live in the HMO, plus, they are all European. Guess that's why I think it is possibly an unregulated HMO thing.

If no more than one person is actually living there, how could it be an HMO?

Sorry, I mean nobody is 'living there' at the moment. No furniture or window coverings, etc. People simply keep turning up and then going shortly after. All different people, but mostly - so far - around 5 different lads.

Them all being so similar and speaking same language makes me think it is going to be a HMO - this is why I am puzzled and wondered if any landlords might be able to enlighten me: is it usual behaviour for prospective tenants to keep arriving at the house before it is ready to let?
And if it is to let, why isn't it advertised anywhere whatsoever?

A0812

a_fierce_bad_rabbit said:

Out of interest, can I ask why so many people think there might be a criminal element to this mystery?

My original concern was that although it all seems to be a bit irregular and confusing, it is most likely another HMO that will cause trouble for my relative who is joined on to it.
However, I did post a similar question on another website, and even there I was advised to suspect illegal activity.
It would be a great help to know why? I will post a bullet point list of activity (that I am aware of) so that people can see a timeline of events, hopefully it will make sense! (Please forgive me for mentioning nationalities and languages as I do think there is a neccesity for it).

--------------------

1/ March 2020 Landlord who had run a HMO for Eastern European workers decided to sell up. All tenants left within a week, suddenly. He admitted to my family member (next door) that he didnt want to fuss with licensing and that the tenants had wrecked the place too often.

2/House sold in June 2020 I think, via a popular estate agent. Same week an elderly Chinese couple appear in their vehicle and sit in the street for long periods of time, watching the house. We assumed they might be the buyers and were checking stuff out.

3/Previous owner (the HMO guy) still present quite a lot. Perhaps completion is slow? Has a lad fit new carpets in the house and paint the interior walls. He tells my relative that house was sold to a wealthy Chinese lady who also purchased 20 other houses in the area. 

4/Several months later the previous owner is still going to the house. He shows a young Chinese couple around, we see them leaving, they seem like nice folk. My relative said he hoped they were going to be his new neighbours. However, if the house has been sold for months, why is the previous owner showing random people around it?

5/Shortly after this, the elderly Chinese man arrives alone and fits a key safe next to the front door.

6/ Periodically, a young man in his early 20's goes into the house for a few mins then leaves. Over the space of several weeks a similar yet different young guy will go in, then leave. We assumed it was someone keeping an eye on the empty house as the owners might be living at a distance or overseas. Whenever one of these lads appeared the often spoke on phone outside window, they all spoke in an Eastern European language. Myself, I thought it was perhaps going to carry on as a HMO as it used to be with previous owner.

7/Several weeks later we were going out when a guy approached us at the front. He introduced himself as Spanish and had been 'given' the house for himself and his family. Had a great chat with him and then left. He was also talking on phone before speaking to us, although in an arabic language (apologies I am not experienced with some languages). I was happy to think my relative was going to have a nice family living there. 
It is worth mentioning that if all of these visitors were talking to an agent or landlord, wouldn't they use a language they all had in common instead of many different ones?

8/ Last week, no further sign of the Spanish family or the original Chinese buyers (and god knows who the young Chinese couple were). And during the past week, around 6 different young European lads (some alone or some arriving in twos) have entered the house. All appear to be trying to fix an internal door. They stay for a few mins, talking loudly on phone, then leave.

9/ I was present last week when I heard a few bumps in there around 3am. The wall is very thin and the street is generally dead as a doornail at this hour. I put my ear to the wall and distinctly heard what sounded like movie sounds coming from a small device - like someone watching a film on a phone. This stopped suddenly. I went out and checked, there were no lights on in there at all and no window coverings, is if someone was in there, they were sat with no furniture in the dark.

What confuses us is if the house was to be let to the Spanish family, who are these young guys? And if they are potential HMO tenants, why were they present even before the Spanish guy? Would a prospective HMO tenant keep visiting an empty unfurnished house for months before it is ready?
Mentioning the nationalities of the people concerned is relevant because they all seem to have no relation to each other whatsoever. 

House is not on the market, and is not advertised anywhere as a rental.
Apologies for length, just thought it might make more sense for those who like a puzzle and to explain why I can't see how this is a drug racket. Thanks for sticking around!

How can you write this all out so clearly and still NOT suspect any illegal activity?

This is all sounding very suspect to me and I am leaning on the side of others who have suggested reporting via the modern slavery helpline.  The men may be picking up drugs to sell elsewhere and the property could be being used to grow/produce stock, hence the quick visits.  It does admittedly sound very dark, but also plausible and this stuff does happen sadly.

Reporting it now will cause no harm, allow the police to check and settle any suspicions you may have.

a_fierce_bad_rabbit

A0812 said:

a_fierce_bad_rabbit said:

Out of interest, can I ask why so many people think there might be a criminal element to this mystery?

My original concern was that although it all seems to be a bit irregular and confusing, it is most likely another HMO that will cause trouble for my relative who is joined on to it.
However, I did post a similar question on another website, and even there I was advised to suspect illegal activity.
It would be a great help to know why? I will post a bullet point list of activity (that I am aware of) so that people can see a timeline of events, hopefully it will make sense! (Please forgive me for mentioning nationalities and languages as I do think there is a neccesity for it).

--------------------

1/ March 2020 Landlord who had run a HMO for Eastern European workers decided to sell up. All tenants left within a week, suddenly. He admitted to my family member (next door) that he didnt want to fuss with licensing and that the tenants had wrecked the place too often.

2/House sold in June 2020 I think, via a popular estate agent. Same week an elderly Chinese couple appear in their vehicle and sit in the street for long periods of time, watching the house. We assumed they might be the buyers and were checking stuff out.

3/Previous owner (the HMO guy) still present quite a lot. Perhaps completion is slow? Has a lad fit new carpets in the house and paint the interior walls. He tells my relative that house was sold to a wealthy Chinese lady who also purchased 20 other houses in the area. 

4/Several months later the previous owner is still going to the house. He shows a young Chinese couple around, we see them leaving, they seem like nice folk. My relative said he hoped they were going to be his new neighbours. However, if the house has been sold for months, why is the previous owner showing random people around it?

5/Shortly after this, the elderly Chinese man arrives alone and fits a key safe next to the front door.

6/ Periodically, a young man in his early 20's goes into the house for a few mins then leaves. Over the space of several weeks a similar yet different young guy will go in, then leave. We assumed it was someone keeping an eye on the empty house as the owners might be living at a distance or overseas. Whenever one of these lads appeared the often spoke on phone outside window, they all spoke in an Eastern European language. Myself, I thought it was perhaps going to carry on as a HMO as it used to be with previous owner.

7/Several weeks later we were going out when a guy approached us at the front. He introduced himself as Spanish and had been 'given' the house for himself and his family. Had a great chat with him and then left. He was also talking on phone before speaking to us, although in an arabic language (apologies I am not experienced with some languages). I was happy to think my relative was going to have a nice family living there. 
It is worth mentioning that if all of these visitors were talking to an agent or landlord, wouldn't they use a language they all had in common instead of many different ones?

8/ Last week, no further sign of the Spanish family or the original Chinese buyers (and god knows who the young Chinese couple were). And during the past week, around 6 different young European lads (some alone or some arriving in twos) have entered the house. All appear to be trying to fix an internal door. They stay for a few mins, talking loudly on phone, then leave.

9/ I was present last week when I heard a few bumps in there around 3am. The wall is very thin and the street is generally dead as a doornail at this hour. I put my ear to the wall and distinctly heard what sounded like movie sounds coming from a small device - like someone watching a film on a phone. This stopped suddenly. I went out and checked, there were no lights on in there at all and no window coverings, is if someone was in there, they were sat with no furniture in the dark.

What confuses us is if the house was to be let to the Spanish family, who are these young guys? And if they are potential HMO tenants, why were they present even before the Spanish guy? Would a prospective HMO tenant keep visiting an empty unfurnished house for months before it is ready?
Mentioning the nationalities of the people concerned is relevant because they all seem to have no relation to each other whatsoever. 

House is not on the market, and is not advertised anywhere as a rental.
Apologies for length, just thought it might make more sense for those who like a puzzle and to explain why I can't see how this is a drug racket. Thanks for sticking around!

How can you write this all out so clearly and still NOT suspect any illegal activity?

This is all sounding very suspect to me and I am leaning on the side of others who have suggested reporting via the modern slavery helpline.  The men may be picking up drugs to sell elsewhere and the property could be being used to grow/produce stock, hence the quick visits.  It does admittedly sound very dark, but also plausible and this stuff does happen sadly.

Reporting it now will cause no harm, allow the police to check and settle any suspicions you may have.

I suppose because nothing ever happens there, except the age-old predictable !!!!!!. HMO's and apathetic tenants with gardens piled high with dog !!!!!!. People don't even venture in to their gardens in summer because of the warmed-up scent of crap.
You never expect anything apart from the same old, same old.
About once a year, a car explodes, and that's that. No one cares, sadly.

I hear you though, and I will pass the info on to my relative who lives in this place. He has a way out, so no worries, but I suspect that if anything illegal is afoot, he'd rather carry on like it's happy-valley-sunday and avoid strife. Not because he doesn't care, but because he's simply had enough and his stress levels aren't worth it.

a_fierce_bad_rabbit

Also, can I ask, even though I appreciate the overwhelming response that this is suspect, would anyone mind telling me why?
What specific things, from my description, make you feel something illegal is going on?
When I wrote my OP, I honestly just thought it was going to be a potential HMO and wondered if landlords might enlighten me on that. I never expected the response I have received. However I do appreciate all of your replies and am taking it seriously.

silvercar

Prospective tenants of HMO are not picky, not least because they are very price sensitive and tend to only stay for 6 months - 1 year. They will have seen the property online. Location and price are the key factors. You wouldn't expect a stream of viewings. They see, they decide, they move in. All done and dusted within a few days. Rooms get filled one by one, not as a group - unless it's a student let, but you seem to have ruled that out.
For a genuine HMO you wouldn't have a large number of viewings before tenants move in. A large number of visitors to a still empty property, doesn't sound like a standard HMO to me.

martindow

For goodness sake OP just report it yourself to the modern slavery reporting site. 

Police will visit and either find there is nothing untoward or they will act to stop whatever criminal activity is taking place.  I am sure that the police would prefer reports to be made if there are any suspicions about what is going on even if it turns out to be entirely innocent.

All of the conjecture and worrying about what may or not be happening will not be resolved in any other way.  A lot of modern slavery occurs in  plain sight.

a_fierce_bad_rabbit

silvercar said:

Prospective tenants of HMO are not picky, not least because they are very price sensitive and tend to only stay for 6 months - 1 year. They will have seen the property online. Location and price are the key factors. You wouldn't expect a stream of viewings. They see, they decide, they move in. All done and dusted within a few days. Rooms get filled one by one, not as a group - unless it's a student let, but you seem to have ruled that out.
For a genuine HMO you wouldn't have a large number of viewings before tenants move in. A large number of visitors to a still empty property, doesn't sound like a standard HMO to me.

Thanks, that's helpful to know.
Do you think having a key safe there is unusual also?
The place is not advertised anywhere online or listed for sale/airb&b or anything else.
Is it usual for HMO's to advertise by other means?

a_fierce_bad_rabbit

martindow said:

For goodness sake OP just report it yourself to the modern slavery reporting site. 

Police will visit and either find there is nothing untoward or they will act to stop whatever criminal activity is taking place.  I am sure that the police would prefer reports to be made if there are any suspicions about what is going on even if it turns out to be entirely innocent.

All of the conjecture and worrying about what may or not be happening will not be resolved in any other way.  A lot of modern slavery occurs in  plain sight.

Im going to chat to my relative about this. We are both really confused about what to do. I have no evidence of modern slavery whatsoever, apart from a few seconds of sound on one night. Does that really strike people as potential slavery?
I agree that it can't hurt, and if it could possible help.....

wannabe_a_saver

Like others have said, maybe a drug farm, or maybe there are young women or girls being kept in there hence male visitors coming for short periods only. 

I'm starting to think this is a wind up, to present such an obviously suspicious scenario and then pretend to be so naive you can't possibly imagine that there could be anything bad going on, and then when you've got a lot of posters genuinely worried that there might be real human beings suffering or in danger in that house you dismiss the idea of even an anonymous report to be on the safe side!

a_fierce_bad_rabbit

wannabe_a_saver said:

Like others have said, maybe a drug farm, or maybe there are young women or girls being kept in there hence male visitors coming for short periods only. 

I'm starting to think this is a wind up, to present such an obviously suspicious scenario and then pretend to be so naive you can't possibly imagine that there could be anything bad going on, and then when you've got a lot of posters genuinely worried that there might be real human beings suffering or in danger in that house you dismiss the idea of even an anonymous report to be on the safe side!

Im really confused why anyone would think this.
I am embarrassed to say that I am only concerned about my relative having to go through another 6 years of HMO hell. That was my original focus, to see if any landlords could help me to figure out if it looks to be set for HMO lettings.

As the days have gone by, especially the past 5, the situation HAS definitely begun to look more and more odd, I will admit that.

On the subject of criminal activity, we are both incredibly suspicious now, and alert, and are happy to contact the website linked with regards to a potential modern slavery issue.
I can't see the use in a wind-up of this nature, what would I gain from that?
Im feeling some uncalled for hostility here, which isn't unusual on this forum, which is kinda sad because it is such a great resource in general.
The past year has sent many of us a little crazy but im certain I havent reached the point of no return just yet!