English grant not being given until Scottish grant given

Langtang

Quick recap & rundown of what has happened:

FIL's sister (England) passed away July ‘20. Sole beneficiary was FIL. FIL (Scotland) passed away 3 weeks later. Mil would have been sole beneficiary of FIL, had they not both had 30 day clauses in their wills. MIL passed away 4 days after FIL. Daughter is sole beneficiary of all. 

Fast forward to this month.

We received news that English courts are “....unable to issue English Grants until such time as they receive confirmation that the Scottish Grants for FIL and MIL have been issued”

This seems strange, as MIL was nowhere in the inheritance chain (due to the 30 day clauses in both their wills) and unusual?

Not questioning the courts, but why would this be? Why would the English courts need Scottish Grant confirmation before issuing theirs.

There is a buyer for sister's house in the waiting. Hopefully will exchange before the extension to tax discount runs out in June/July.

Langtang

I'm just wondering if I've worded this query properly? Plese let me know if any other information is needed/required to allow comments.

xylophone

The sister (will under English law) left a brother her sole estate subject to a thirty day clause.

The brother died within thirty days of his sister so the bequest lapsed.

Was the brother's  child named as sole beneficiary if  his/her father predeceased the aunt?

poppystar

xylophone said:

The sister (will under English law) left a brother her sole estate subject to a thirty day clause.

The brother died within thirty days of his sister so the bequest lapsed.

Was the brother's  child named as sole beneficiary if  his/her father predeceased the aunt?

Did the sister have a 30 day clause? I read it as FIL and MIL had that. Hence why OP thinks it strange English courts waiting on Scottish. 

Although given that how would the English courts have known? Unless FIL was Executor to his sister. 

Langtang

poppystar said:^

xylophone said:

The sister (will under English law) left a brother her sole estate subject to a thirty day clause.

The brother died within thirty days of his sister so the bequest lapsed.

Was the brother's  child named as sole beneficiary if  his/her father predeceased the aunt?

Did the sister have a 30 day clause? I read it as FIL and MIL had that. Hence why OP thinks it strange English courts waiting on Scottish. 

Although given that how would the English courts have known? Unless FIL was Executor to his sister. 

Sorry, I should have said. FIL’s sister died intestate. Sister’s house was still in her mums name, who had died 12 years previous to her.
 It took a little while to sort that out, but still confused regarding the latest hold up. 

poppystar

So it looks like it might be the close death dates. In the PA1a,  section 3.3 your wife as niece of deceased would not be eligible to apply if FIL was included in 3.3e rather than 3.f - which presumably he was if you answered that he survived his sister. But then your wife wouldn’t have then fitted into either of the categories referred to for the applicant either. In fact answering that section under these circumstances would seem almost impossible since there is no option to say the brother survived but is no longer surviving! 
 
Although why, given that, they can’t proceed on production of a death certificate for FIL rather than grant is confusing.

Have you actually asked them why they need the grants? 

theoretica

I guess the English grant wants documentation that the niece is the correct person to apply/deal with this and the Scottish grant is the form they want this in, rather than working though the chain themselves. 

Langtang

poppystar said:

So it looks like it might be the close death dates. In the PA1a,  section 3.3 your wife as niece of deceased would not be eligible to apply if FIL was included in 3.3e rather than 3.f - which presumably he was if you answered that he survived his sister. But then your wife wouldn’t have then fitted into either of the categories referred to for the applicant either. In fact answering that section under these circumstances would seem almost impossible since there is no option to say the brother survived but is no longer surviving! 

I'm afraid that I'm unsure what you are referring to when you speak of PA1a etc. When my wife's Aunt passed away, my father-in-law had to find a solicitor down in England to deal with this (apparently, a Scottish solicitor cannot represent someone in England) which he did. 

Since then we've been in sporadic contact with the solicitors down South (we're in Scotland, too) We have our solicitor dealing with FIL & MIL estates. 

poppystar

Langtang said:

poppystar said:

So it looks like it might be the close death dates. In the PA1a,  section 3.3 your wife as niece of deceased would not be eligible to apply if FIL was included in 3.3e rather than 3.f - which presumably he was if you answered that he survived his sister. But then your wife wouldn’t have then fitted into either of the categories referred to for the applicant either. In fact answering that section under these circumstances would seem almost impossible since there is no option to say the brother survived but is no longer surviving! 

I'm afraid that I'm unsure what you are referring to when you speak of PA1a etc. When my wife's Aunt passed away, my father-in-law had to find a solicitor down in England to deal with this (apparently, a Scottish solicitor cannot represent someone in England) which he did. 

Since then we've been in sporadic contact with the solicitors down South (we're in Scotland, too) We have our solicitor dealing with FIL & MIL estates. 

Ok, sorry. It is the probate application when no Will. I didn’t realise you had appointed a solicitor to apply for probate. Apologies if I missed that. 
 What is the English solicitors opinion on why the Scottish grants are necessary first? Is it them that you refer to when you say ‘you have received news’. Again I had assumed that It was correspondence direct from the court. 

Langtang

theoretica said:

I guess the English grant wants documentation that the niece is the correct person to apply/deal with this and the Scottish grant is the form they want this in, rather than working though the chain themselves. 

That could quite easily be true. FIL was my wife's step father. Although she took his surname, her biological father refused to allow her adoption. We'd sent all the proof of all the above down south, and it had all been checked and confirmed. 

Langtang

poppystar said:

Langtang said:

poppystar said:

So it looks like it might be the close death dates. In the PA1a,  section 3.3 your wife as niece of deceased would not be eligible to apply if FIL was included in 3.3e rather than 3.f - which presumably he was if you answered that he survived his sister. But then your wife wouldn’t have then fitted into either of the categories referred to for the applicant either. In fact answering that section under these circumstances would seem almost impossible since there is no option to say the brother survived but is no longer surviving! 

I'm afraid that I'm unsure what you are referring to when you speak of PA1a etc. When my wife's Aunt passed away, my father-in-law had to find a solicitor down in England to deal with this (apparently, a Scottish solicitor cannot represent someone in England) which he did. 

Since then we've been in sporadic contact with the solicitors down South (we're in Scotland, too) We have our solicitor dealing with FIL & MIL estates. 

Ok, sorry. It is the probate application when no Will. I didn’t realise you had appointed a solicitor to apply for probate. Apologies if I missed that. 
 What is the English solicitors opinion on why the Scottish grants are necessary first? Is it them that you refer to when you say ‘you have received news’. Again I had assumed that It was correspondence direct from the court. 

I'm sorry, I hadn't mentioned that in my initial response. 

The response from the English solicitor is just this:

"I was hoping that the English Courts would issue the Grants without the need to wait for the Scottish Grants to be issued for FIL.  I am pressing the Court on this point but they usually are sticklers for detail and it is unlikely that they will change their stance"

Which doesn't really answer the why question.