The problem with UK skill training

Malthusian

AskAsk said:

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

I didn't do IT GCSE when I was at school, despite being one of the biggest geeks. It was a Mickey Mouse exam. "Here is a picture of a computer. Circle the power button. (8)"  Maybe that's why fewer kids are doing it.

I did do it at AS level, but I'm not sure even the A-level is of much value if your ultimate aim is a high-earning, high-skilled IT role. Any kid who was serious about a career in IT would have been well ahead of the course thanks to coding in their bedroom.

The headline is a complete nonsense. Covid recovery at risk because 40% fewer kids are taking IT GCSE? Even if anyone cared about an IT GCSE (nobody does), by the time those 16-year-olds bereft of the ability to circle a picture of a power button have entered the workforce, let alone progressed far enough to have a material effect on the economy, Covid will be a distant if painful memory.

It is unclear whether the article is complaining about a shortage of basic skills among the workforce in general (i.e. the ability to write a correctly-spelled letter and use Excel) or about a shortage of skilled IT professionals. They are very different things. It is unclear whether there is actually a severe shortage of skilled IT professionals as Gavin83 says. There is of course a shortage of kids leaving school able to read, write and add up because there always has been and always will be. The "skills gap" is just a new name for an old phenomenon.

AskAsk

ushjr said:

Gavin83 said:

ushjr said:

AskAsk said:

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

i work in IT myself and there are certainly more vacancies than there are people to fill them.  however most of the vacant positions are very experienced so there is a lack of candidates.  IT employers don't tend to invest in training people and want to recruit ready made staff, which explains why there are more positions requiring experience and no one to fill them.

most IT jobs are demanding and stressful and the pay can be poor for the what it is, so unless you have a lot of experience or get into a niche area, the pay is not attractive.

Are kids getting more interested in tech though? I'm from the age group that was perfectly placed to embrace the new world of the internet as it was back then being teenagers at the time, but I don't remember too many people being that fussed. When I was at college in the year 2000 there was something we had the option to do on the internet and in class the teacher came up to each of us individually to see if we were interested so he could give us details. None of us were interested and he sarcastically said something like good to see you're all living up to your stereotype.

Sure you do see kids using their phones a lot, but that could be because phones have been part and parcel of their life rather than being interested in tech. When I was a teenager I rode my bike a lot, I went everywhere on it and would go cycling in woods and the like for fun. I was never interested in bikes though, I enjoyed riding them but I saw them more as a way of getting around until I was old enough to drive and I've not rode a bike since.

The way I've seen IT careers described on here though, they really don't seem attractive. It sounds like you need 10 years relevant experience to get anywhere, when you get there the pay isn't attractive in many cases and then once you hit 40 nobody wants to employ you because you're too old. 

Except it's not really true. You won't walk from university into a well paid highly technical role but I'm not sure there's any career path where this is the case. There are IT jobs you can get without experience (Service desk work for example) which then builds your experience to apply for the higher level jobs.

IT is still one of the best paid industries on average (google it) and once in a technical role I'd expect you to be earning enough to pay 40% tax. If you're willing to work as a contractor, which is common in IT or get to management level you'll be earning 6 figures a year. I had a technical IT job advert sent to me the other day that was paying £80k a year, with no management required, although this was based in London. I'm not sure what peoples definition is of good pay but I wouldn't say that'll leave you struggling to pay the bills. Sure, IT likely won't pay as well as medicine or law but you don't need the extensive education either.

My wife works in Governance, has a lot of responsibility and manages a team. She also has a masters degree. I have none of these things (well I have the responsibility!) yet we earn the same salary. I'm likely to receive a promotion soon at which point I'll earn more, still managing no staff.

Ageism exists in all industries, although admittedly it's likely worse in IT than other sectors. I wouldn't say you won't get work past 40, experience trumps just about everything else after all but if you're looking to enter IT for the first time past this age you might struggle. I have a lot of colleagues past the age of 40, 50 and even a few past the age of 60.

I'm interested in hearing other peoples experiences but my own experiences differ. Personally I think IT is a great sector to work in but it is something you need a passion for. If you don't have this passion look elsewhere.

On another note there was a glut of people looking for careers in IT because of the pay and because they stuck some memory in their PC once, therefore they think they're skilled. We've had many such threads on here. These people will struggle to find work. People who are passionate and realistic about their expectations should find work without issue. 

Fair enough. I've never worked in IT and being the wrong side of 40 now I probably never will, not that I have any desire to anyway. I'm a firm believer though that people who are 'passionate' about their work are just pretending to be more often than not. Unless you count hating work with a passion, like I do.

lol.  'passionate about their work' is an advertising slogan isn't it?  does it even exist?

route101

I graduated last year from a degree in Building Surveying. Apparently the industry is crying out for graduates. Position I was meant to start last year fell through so been trying to get a role since. Graduate with no experience is not a good look. I'm a bit older in my 30s , I'm eager to start my career. Its funny as when I look on Linkedin they were promoting apprenticeships week, made me kinda regret doing full time degree route.
Companies should be more willing to train up employees who are not as experienced, needs to be incentives. They complain about useless graduates yet don't want to invest in staff. My uni were thinking of scrapping full time construction degrees as the industry wasn't happy. Seems easier to get work experience as a school pupil than a 30 something eager graduate willing to learn.

autoeng68

Its amazing how many companies still dont have apprenticeships. Reading this, in IT they seem to be none existent in IT (surely thats an industry where they should be essential?). I worked as an engineer in the Automotive industry, and they've always had apprenticeships (i was one myself). They still have them today, and its strongly regarded that the apprentices tend to be better when they start full time role than the graduates (obviously not always the case) as they get the practical experience as well as the Technical Qualifications. When i was at Aston Martin a lot of Apprentices were effectively carrying out full time roles by the last year of their apprenticeship. In the Automotive industry if you look at jobs advertised then they concider a HND/HNC plus experience to be equivalent to a Degree qualifiaction.
Incentives are definitely required to get more companies offering apprenticeships, and this is one of the areas the Government should be promoting and investing in more. Instead if you look at Rishi Sunak's recent budget he's obsessed with getting young people working in high street stores. I'm not saying retail isnt a worth while career, but its all going on line now and they need to accept that the traditional high street is now dead.

route101

autoeng68 said:

Its amazing how many companies still dont have apprenticeships. Reading this, in IT they seem to be none existent in IT (surely thats an industry where they should be essential?). I worked as an engineer in the Automotive industry, and they've always had apprenticeships (i was one myself). They still have them today, and its strongly regarded that the apprentices tend to be better when they start full time role than the graduates (obviously not always the case) as they get the practical experience as well as the Technical Qualifications. When i was at Aston Martin a lot of Apprentices were effectively carrying out full time roles by the last year of their apprenticeship. In the Automotive industry if you look at jobs advertised then they concider a HND/HNC plus experience to be equivalent to a Degree qualifiaction.
Incentives are definitely required to get more companies offering apprenticeships, and this is one of the areas the Government should be promoting and investing in more. Instead if you look at Rishi Sunak's recent budget he's obsessed with getting young people working in high street stores. I'm not saying retail isnt a worth while career, but its all going on line now and they need to accept that the traditional high street is now dead.

I've noticed more apprenticeships last few years, some are dubious , seen one other day full time warehouse apprentice £10k a year, same with farmfood apprentice pays less than regular employee. Other ones like Building Surveyor or engineering ones are priceless, I get impression employers are getting bit sick of graduates. Needs a shake up. Experience is worth more than the degree I feel.

AskAsk

autoeng68 said:

Its amazing how many companies still dont have apprenticeships. Reading this, in IT they seem to be none existent in IT (surely thats an industry where they should be essential?). I worked as an engineer in the Automotive industry, and they've always had apprenticeships (i was one myself). They still have them today, and its strongly regarded that the apprentices tend to be better when they start full time role than the graduates (obviously not always the case) as they get the practical experience as well as the Technical Qualifications. When i was at Aston Martin a lot of Apprentices were effectively carrying out full time roles by the last year of their apprenticeship. In the Automotive industry if you look at jobs advertised then they concider a HND/HNC plus experience to be equivalent to a Degree qualifiaction.
Incentives are definitely required to get more companies offering apprenticeships, and this is one of the areas the Government should be promoting and investing in more. Instead if you look at Rishi Sunak's recent budget he's obsessed with getting young people working in high street stores. I'm not saying retail isnt a worth while career, but its all going on line now and they need to accept that the traditional high street is now dead.

my company doesn't even recruit graduates from any discipline.  they are a consultancy company so they only recruit people with experience.  they do train people but only if they recruited experienced staff from other industry that they need.  within the last couple of years they started a graduate recruitment scheme at one of the office up north but i don't know how that is going.

from my brief experience of training the graduates, i didn't think it was a great idea as the graduates were asked to do very complex work straightaway rather than train them from the beginning, and then they were left to their own devices.  a recipe for disaster.

Gavin83

autoeng68 said:

Its amazing how many companies still dont have apprenticeships. Reading this, in IT they seem to be none existent in IT (surely thats an industry where they should be essential?). I worked as an engineer in the Automotive industry, and they've always had apprenticeships (i was one myself). They still have them today, and its strongly regarded that the apprentices tend to be better when they start full time role than the graduates (obviously not always the case) as they get the practical experience as well as the Technical Qualifications. When i was at Aston Martin a lot of Apprentices were effectively carrying out full time roles by the last year of their apprenticeship. In the Automotive industry if you look at jobs advertised then they concider a HND/HNC plus experience to be equivalent to a Degree qualifiaction.
Incentives are definitely required to get more companies offering apprenticeships, and this is one of the areas the Government should be promoting and investing in more. Instead if you look at Rishi Sunak's recent budget he's obsessed with getting young people working in high street stores. I'm not saying retail isnt a worth while career, but its all going on line now and they need to accept that the traditional high street is now dead.

We have IT apprenticeships in our place but I do agree apprenticeships overall have reduced considerably compared to the past. The pay certainly ain't great (not sure any apprenticeships are!) but it does at least give you the experience needed to apply for these elusive roles.