The problem with UK skill training

bartelbe

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/mar/21/uk-digital-skills-shortage-risks-covid-recovery-as-young-people-shun-it-courses 

An article about UK employers complaining about a skill shortage, this time in IT. The problem I have with such complaints, is the journalists and senior managers involved never climb down from their ivory towers to understand why such skill shortages exist.

For young people it is the dreaded five years minimum experience requirement for jobs. Often written by clueless computers says no types in HR departments. My favourite was an ad which required five years experience of a piece of software that had only existed for three years. So young people are being offered courses of dubious value in the employment market, which will cost them a fortune and are treated with contempt by UK employers. Would you take an IT qualification or stem course in general? If the qualifications aren't valued, why not just take a Micky option and have more fun at uni?

As for older Britons, like myself, the flexible labour market is a joke. Employers are completely inflexible and transferable skills are a complete myth. British employers expect the perfect candidate, that will cost nothing in training costs and often offer low pay. They then have the nerve to whine about an ageing workforce and skill shortages, that they themselves helped create. If British employers want to fix the skill shortage, they will have to pay for training and accept people from other industries with transferable skills.

The reality is, a large number, I would say the majority of UK adults. Don't have the time or money to take a punt on a qualification of dubious value to maybe get a job in a new industry. Until that is fixed by employer and the government. Offering a viable for way for people to retrain and reskill. The flexible labour market is simply a myth.

autoeng68

I totally agree,
You may actually find that you're application is not being kicked out by a "computer says no" type person but an actual computer performing the initial sift. I was once told to put in certain key words from a job description in my CV in white on white so that they were not seen, but are picked up by a computer.
Like you i'm older (in my 50's), and in March last year lost my job as an Engineer in the Automotive Industry. I am unable to currently find a role doing what i previously did before due to the Car industry now being in a serious decline. I dont desperately want to go back to the Automotive industry as i am older and would actually prefer a less stressfull job now. I have lots skills (eg i can do most building trades learnt from renovating several properties) and transferable skills (eg project management) but dont have any qualifications in these. I'm therefore applying for lots of jobs that i know i can do, but i'm not even making the first sift.
What is needed is a government backed training schemes (open to all ages) with guaranteed jobs when you've completed the course. This should have been in the last budget (you know the one that meant to be putting the country back on it feet!) Instead Rishi Sunak is investing millions to try and save high streets in towns that are inevitably going to close in a couple of years as we are now buying everything on line.

Gavin83

Well there clearly isn’t a skills shortage then. If there was employers would be forced to pay higher salaries and/or accept less experienced candidates and train them up. They can’t all be true.

Personally as someone who works in IT I see a lot of available well paid positions out there. Maybe they won’t accept a lesser candidate but if the “perfect” candidate exists why would they?

The other issue I see is that young people are ambitious, although some might say entitled. They aren’t happy to start at the bottom and build their knowledge. They leave uni with an IT related degree and believe they should walk straight into a highly skilled, highly paid role. This is unrealistic. If I was interviewing for a technical IT role and I had the choice of someone fresh out of uni or someone with 10 years of experience I’d choose experience every time.

Finally unless you want to work for the likes of Google or Microsoft I wouldn’t recommend someone seeking a career in IT to get a degree these days. You’d be better off getting a low level IT role straight from school and building up your experience instead. 

bartelbe

Gavin83 said:

Well there clearly isn’t a skills shortage then. If there was employers would be forced to pay higher salaries and/or accept less experienced candidates and train them up. They can’t all be true.

Personally as someone who works in IT I see a lot of available well paid positions out there. Maybe they won’t accept a lesser candidate but if the “perfect” candidate exists why would they?

The other issue I see is that young people are ambitious, although some might say entitled. They aren’t happy to start at the bottom and build their knowledge. They leave uni with an IT related degree and believe they should walk straight into a highly skilled, highly paid role. This is unrealistic. If I was interviewing for a technical IT role and I had the choice of someone fresh out of uni or someone with 10 years of experience I’d choose experience every time.

Finally unless you want to work for the likes of Google or Microsoft I wouldn’t recommend someone seeking a career in IT to get a degree these days. You’d be better off getting a low level IT role straight from school and building up your experience instead. 

It is employers complaining about the skill shortage, so it is not a myth.

To be blunt you're not understanding the issue, which the first reply on the thread perfectly illustrates. The posters was a skilled automotive engineer, which shows they have the ability to do a complex and skilled job. Employers won't look twice at them because they haven't got the qualifications and experience which precisely matches the job spec. Employers are refusing to be flexible, even when they claim they are short of applicants.

Yet at the same time those at the top of the government, media and business are singing the praises of our flexible labour market, saving it is not a problem if jobs are offshored or become obsolete. By the wonder of our flexible labour market, skilled workers will simply transfer into a new industry.

As for younger people you condemn as entitled, that isn't the case. Most just want to get into an entry level job that actually pays, the old fashioned graduate training scheme. They are finding instead that employers don't offer such roles and unless they can afford to work for free, they are locked out of the job market.

A situation that hardly benefits employers, who constantly whine about an ageing workforce, yet refuse to do anything about it by investing in training.

Gavin83

I’m sorry to disagree but it simply doesn’t add up. Let’s assume there is a skills shortage and these roles are actually required. With a skills shortage they’ll be a large pool of employers seeking a small pool of employees. To attract that small pool of employees something will have to give. Either they’ll need to offer a more attractive package than their competitors (often more money), they’ll have to up-skill people who aren’t quite perfect or they’ll have to expand their search area, maybe even looking abroad. If they don’t do this the roles will sit there unfilled.

If what you say is true and employers are only accepting perfect candidates this would suggest there isn’t a skills shortage at all. Alternatively the applicant is only willing to accept the very best employers who will get their pick of the bunch when the applicant might be better accepting an average employer where they can develop their skills. Or their skills aren’t quite as transferable as they think.

Essentially if the employer is getting the candidates they want why should they adjust their requirements?

Employers are also far more likely to train up existing members of staff than new staff which means that if there is a skills shortage they may well not bothering hiring externally at all.

Yes, employers may well be claiming skills shortages. Their actions speak otherwise.

AskAsk

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

i work in IT myself and there are certainly more vacancies than there are people to fill them.  however most of the vacant positions are very experienced so there is a lack of candidates.  IT employers don't tend to invest in training people and want to recruit ready made staff, which explains why there are more positions requiring experience and no one to fill them.

most IT jobs are demanding and stressful and the pay can be poor for the what it is, so unless you have a lot of experience or get into a niche area, the pay is not attractive.

Dakta

"i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE"
That is a surprising stat tbh, despite being a bit of a geek at the time I nearly failed mine because compared to coding, spreadsheets just didn't do anything for me which is what IT seemed to be about (at least back then). Managed to pull myself a C before going to college and things went completely the other way

Did notice my ten year old nephew had some games homework to do a few weeks ago which required one to make or fix what were effectively simplistic programs so the computing science side does seem to be working its way in somewhere which is good (though in his case he doesn't appear to have much interest).

As I've said half a dozen times on here the requirement for degrees or years experience really put me off and because of the expectation of failure delayed my own entry into IT, though there definitely is value in self investing in training and certs (and I continue to do this). In the face of CV's being reviewed by machine or binary rules it can edge you to an interview. 

Savvy_Sue

AskAsk said:

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

Two of mine work in IT (which is of course an extremely broad field). I don't think either felt that GCSE in whatever it was called back then served any useful purpose whatsoever. DS1 took the A level which he felt was a complete waste of time, went on to read Computer Science at a good uni. DS2 declined to do the A level and went to the same good uni to read Maths. 

Actually I'd seriously doubt the value of any GCSE qualification in preparing for the workplace: I always felt they were a gateway to higher things, and the "5 at grade C or above including Maths and English" was going to matter for five minutes only at the age of 16, and never again afterwards. 

AskAsk

Savvy_Sue said:

AskAsk said:

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

Two of mine work in IT (which is of course an extremely broad field). I don't think either felt that GCSE in whatever it was called back then served any useful purpose whatsoever. DS1 took the A level which he felt was a complete waste of time, went on to read Computer Science at a good uni. DS2 declined to do the A level and went to the same good uni to read Maths. 

Actually I'd seriously doubt the value of any GCSE qualification in preparing for the workplace: I always felt they were a gateway to higher things, and the "5 at grade C or above including Maths and English" was going to matter for five minutes only at the age of 16, and never again afterwards. 

i don't think an IT degree is even going to prepare you for an IT career.  just that if more kids were interested in the area, they would have studied IT GCSE, so it is not to prepare them for their future career, but an indication of the kids who will likely go into IT in the future.

as less kids are studying IT in school, it must indicate that the level of interest or aptitude amongst them is not there for the subject, which would be worrying as we need future generations to embrace the subject as everything is going digital.

Savvy_Sue

AskAsk said:

Savvy_Sue said:

AskAsk said:

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

Two of mine work in IT (which is of course an extremely broad field). I don't think either felt that GCSE in whatever it was called back then served any useful purpose whatsoever. DS1 took the A level which he felt was a complete waste of time, went on to read Computer Science at a good uni. DS2 declined to do the A level and went to the same good uni to read Maths. 

Actually I'd seriously doubt the value of any GCSE qualification in preparing for the workplace: I always felt they were a gateway to higher things, and the "5 at grade C or above including Maths and English" was going to matter for five minutes only at the age of 16, and never again afterwards. 

i don't think an IT degree is even going to prepare you for an IT career.  just that if more kids were interested in the area, they would have studied IT GCSE, so it is not to prepare them for their future career, but an indication of the kids who will likely go into IT in the future.

as less kids are studying IT in school, it must indicate that the level of interest or aptitude amongst them is not there for the subject, which would be worrying as we need future generations to embrace the subject as everything is going digital.

I'd say more likely youngsters know - or think they know - they have an interest in or aptitude for IT, and cant see the point of the GCSE. Or the schools cant get the staff to teach it, so they're not doing so. Or it's being pushed out by what's compulsory.

Certainly DS1 felt he knew more than the A level tutor, and that the syllabus wasn't interesting. Some of that is of course the arrogance of youth, but since all of mine would learn a lot independently if they were interested, I don't think that's all it was.

Exam syllabi these days seem to be geared to what can be tested, rather than what's useful or interesting - at least at school.

Gavin83

ushjr said:

AskAsk said:

i was surprised to hear that since 2015 there has been a drop of 40% of children taking IT GCSE, meaning that the skills shortage will only get worse for future generation.  i would have thought as kids are getting more interested in tech, there would be more children taking up IT in school.

i work in IT myself and there are certainly more vacancies than there are people to fill them.  however most of the vacant positions are very experienced so there is a lack of candidates.  IT employers don't tend to invest in training people and want to recruit ready made staff, which explains why there are more positions requiring experience and no one to fill them.

most IT jobs are demanding and stressful and the pay can be poor for the what it is, so unless you have a lot of experience or get into a niche area, the pay is not attractive.

Are kids getting more interested in tech though? I'm from the age group that was perfectly placed to embrace the new world of the internet as it was back then being teenagers at the time, but I don't remember too many people being that fussed. When I was at college in the year 2000 there was something we had the option to do on the internet and in class the teacher came up to each of us individually to see if we were interested so he could give us details. None of us were interested and he sarcastically said something like good to see you're all living up to your stereotype.

Sure you do see kids using their phones a lot, but that could be because phones have been part and parcel of their life rather than being interested in tech. When I was a teenager I rode my bike a lot, I went everywhere on it and would go cycling in woods and the like for fun. I was never interested in bikes though, I enjoyed riding them but I saw them more as a way of getting around until I was old enough to drive and I've not rode a bike since.

The way I've seen IT careers described on here though, they really don't seem attractive. It sounds like you need 10 years relevant experience to get anywhere, when you get there the pay isn't attractive in many cases and then once you hit 40 nobody wants to employ you because you're too old. 

Except it's not really true. You won't walk from university into a well paid highly technical role but I'm not sure there's any career path where this is the case. There are IT jobs you can get without experience (Service desk work for example) which then builds your experience to apply for the higher level jobs.

IT is still one of the best paid industries on average (google it) and once in a technical role I'd expect you to be earning enough to pay 40% tax. If you're willing to work as a contractor, which is common in IT or get to management level you'll be earning 6 figures a year. I had a technical IT job advert sent to me the other day that was paying £80k a year, with no management required, although this was based in London. I'm not sure what peoples definition is of good pay but I wouldn't say that'll leave you struggling to pay the bills. Sure, IT likely won't pay as well as medicine or law but you don't need the extensive education either.

My wife works in Governance, has a lot of responsibility and manages a team. She also has a masters degree. I have none of these things (well I have the responsibility!) yet we earn the same salary. I'm likely to receive a promotion soon at which point I'll earn more, still managing no staff.

Ageism exists in all industries, although admittedly it's likely worse in IT than other sectors. I wouldn't say you won't get work past 40, experience trumps just about everything else after all but if you're looking to enter IT for the first time past this age you might struggle. I have a lot of colleagues past the age of 40, 50 and even a few past the age of 60.

I'm interested in hearing other peoples experiences but my own experiences differ. Personally I think IT is a great sector to work in but it is something you need a passion for. If you don't have this passion look elsewhere.

On another note there was a glut of people looking for careers in IT because of the pay and because they stuck some memory in their PC once, therefore they think they're skilled. We've had many such threads on here. These people will struggle to find work. People who are passionate and realistic about their expectations should find work without issue.